Mental Health Matters
Love and Recovery with Dr. Brooke Keels
What does it take to maintain healthy relationships during recovery? Join us on Mental Health Matters as we unpack this intricate dynamic with Dr. Brooke Keels, Chief Clinical Officer at Lighthouse Recovery. Together, we explore how early recovery relationships often mimic unhealthy familial patterns and why personal health must be the cornerstone before venturing into romance. Dr. Keels sheds light on the modern-day ease of accessing both substances and relationships and the potential traps of these early bonds.
We dive into the importance of non-romantic, meaningful connections and the challenges society imposes on friendships between men and women. Through our conversation, we reveal what truly constitutes a successful relationship, underscoring the pillars of mutual respect, continuous growth, and genuine connection. We discuss the sacredness of vulnerability and the art of offering constructive feedback with genuine care. Learn from Dr. Keels about the necessity of clear relationship visions and the courage to confront and navigate personal unhealthiness. Tune in for a compelling discussion on achieving authentic health and connection, both in the realm of recovery and beyond.
What does it take to maintain healthy relationships during recovery? Join us on Mental Health Matters as we unpack this intricate dynamic with Dr. Brooke Keels, Chief Clinical Officer at Lighthouse Recovery. Together, we explore how early recovery relationships often mimic unhealthy familial patterns and why personal health must be the cornerstone before venturing into romance. Dr. Keels sheds light on the modern-day ease of accessing both substances and relationships and the potential traps of these early bonds.
We dive into the importance of non-romantic, meaningful connections and the challenges society imposes on friendships between men and women. Through our conversation, we reveal what truly constitutes a successful relationship, underscoring the pillars of mutual respect, continuous growth, and genuine connection. We discuss the sacredness of vulnerability and the art of offering constructive feedback with genuine care. Learn from Dr. Keels about the necessity of clear relationship visions and the courage to confront and navigate personal unhealthiness. Tune in for a compelling discussion on achieving authentic health and connection, both in the realm of recovery and beyond.
Hello folks, welcome once again to Mental Health Matters. I'm Todd Weather, your host therapeutic consultant on WPBM 1037, the Voice of Asheville, and I have the privilege of being with Dr Brooke Shields.
Speaker 2:That'd be so cool.
Speaker 1:Dr Brooke Keel. She's the chief clinical officer with Lighthouse Recovery out there in Dallas, texas. We got to go visit them not long ago. That was fun and I don't just invite anybody under the show. She's also kind of a cool person and I enjoyed hanging out with her. Dr Keels graduated from Louisiana State University in 2008 with a Master's in Science and Counseling Psychology, and from the University of Louisiana Monroe in 2014 with a PhD in marriage and family therapy. What's love got to do with it, don? Dr Keels works to create, implement and oversee the partial hospitalization program that is PHP to those of you who know, an intensive outpatient program, iop an individual family therapy program, which is unusual for a recovery center to have such a strong family program at Lighthouse Recovery. She's worked in the recovery industry in a professional capacity for over 15 years in a variety of roles. She brings an empathetic, caring and sometimes even humorous approach to all those she works with. Dr Brooke, thanks for being with us. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So you know, I get an audience that some of them know about recovery and treatment and some are people who are really just trying to be, you know, educated and hear about this conversation. So what does love have to do with it? The number of guys that come to get into recovery in the minute, like they're three months in and the three months sober and they've got a girlfriend and vice versa.
Speaker 1:The girls to like, you know, whatever it is girlfriend, boyfriend, girls with girlfriends, boys with you know the whole nine yards. They found a relationship already, yeah, and they seem to. They seem to fill. What is it? They call it Recovery of the God-sized hole. With that, they were filling with drugs at one point in time, but they're filling with what they want to call love and intimacy, replicating not only patterns of their past but also patterns of the marital relationship that exists between their parents.
Speaker 2:Do you say that's?
Speaker 1:true, Would you see? Do you see that happen? Like let's tease this?
Speaker 2:out.
Speaker 1:Let's, let's map this sucker out, the relationship map of a person who is in recovery in your care. What do you see?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, you know. To be clear, I've been doing this I think 16 years now. It has changed.
Speaker 2:I think it's gotten more complicated and um, not to sound inappropriate, but easier access, yeah um, oh yeah you know kind of like substances, like you can snapchat for meth or or hook up with somebody, yeah, yeah, it's all just available and they'll come to your house, you know. And so I think that you know number one I think the desires are always healthy, right, like even with substances in some way, like I am hurting, right, like, even with substances in some way, like I am hurting this thing meets a healthy desire that I have to feel not in pain, or to feel connected or whatever. I think it's the same thing with relationships I feel alone. This makes me feel not alone, even if maybe this person isn't the greatest, you know, or the healthiest, and I think. So what we see in early recovery and now I work with mainly all men and, for five years, all females I think it's really obviously and I'm even trying to map this out in my head I think it starts with who will be nice to me and the exciting part, and probably using like the drug seeking behavior. This is exciting. Let me get on the apps, let me see who I can connect with, like, let me do all that, and then that loneliness can settle in, and then we kind of try to decide who will, you know, be with us forever and put up with our crap forever.
Speaker 2:You know, and I mean I often tell, often tell guys I'm like you've been looking at being healthy for like seven minutes like I need us to get to healthy first. You know, and and yes, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be in relationship with someone. There's nothing wrong with we can wrong with the emotional, spiritual, physiological need that we have to connect with others. But just because you no longer use substances doesn't make you healthy. That is a learned behavior and often it has to be learned on your own, in your own journey. The people in your own journey, you know, like the people in your life maybe just started having healthy boundaries with you, right, and so, like you said, we will see, there is, um, definitely a correlation with my mom is now no longer enmeshed with me because we've been working on that and she's getting healthier and boundaries setting boundaries.
Speaker 2:And so, all of a sudden, here comes a female that looks very similar to the relationship you had with your mom, you know, and if you want to weird somebody out, you tell them that. But I'm okay with it because it's weird. So we need to, we need to talk about it. So yeah, we uh, one of the roid had a point yeah, you know him and his cocaine had some thoughts. We don't.
Speaker 1:We're not going to go all the way down that rabbit hole, but we'll give him credit where credit is due that's right. You interpret on the thing that's in front of you first right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, absolutely. And again, everybody's just trying to figure it out. So I have a lot of grace for it. But I think we have to also be honest with how sick things can get very quickly when we are trying to be healthy and we go find someone else who is either not healthy or also kind of trying to be healthy, and then you put them together in a room, right, and another thing that we find each other like magnet.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, like I first started this, I was like I don't think I could ever get anyone to date me as quickly as like if I you know what I mean like if I were single and I was like it's time, like even 25 year old, like there was no, I don't know they, just they got them in swarms, like it's just, they're everywhere you know, and I, I have some friends who are still bachelors you know, they're older bachelors and and one of these friends who come by and visit and we'll have dinner or something like that and hang out, and about half the time he's scrolling and I'm like it is surreal to me to watch, because I've been married 26 years and been with my wife when I was 30.
Speaker 1:And none of that stuff existed back then, of course, and that's not the way you did it and I like you, like I'm like I don't. You know, there's no way I would find somebody that fast, even with all the mechanisms. I think that finding somebody fast is kind of the wrong way to approach it. But you know it's. You know people in recovery seem to have it's like they're going to a well with a hole in a bucket you know what I mean like yeah, yeah, they're trying, they keep trying to fill this bucket. They, they refuse to patch the hole and you know they get some water, but then they just, they're just going right like it's this never-ending cycle that they keep going through and maybe, maybe, they can't see the hole.
Speaker 2:I think that that's true because they don't know that it's there yeah, or sometimes you know, the few minutes with the water feels good enough right right that was enough right yeah, let's just see what happens, and they don't know what it is.
Speaker 1:They don't even know what it is to be nourished like. They don't like. That is to them that's as much as they've ever had and this must be what. That is right. Yeah, you were nice to me, I'll take it.
Speaker 2:You know that's as much as they've ever had, and this must be what that is right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you were nice to me, I'll take it you know, that's all it takes, yeah yeah, and, and you know I think that, yeah, I mean, and I think that's the challenge is people understanding like you have to. You have to learn what healthy is. You have to learn what, who safe people are, what do they look like? What is a healthy relationship at all? And another thing that we talk about often and I had to build this into our programming was intimacy and sexuality are not the same thing. Right, we're meant to be connected at intimate levels with different people, especially platonically, and we're seeing really that too, like a lot of not just in recovery, but a lot of people in general just have no idea how to be a friend or have a friend or even what that looks like.
Speaker 1:Know what platonic intimacy looks like. Yeah, I like you and I'm nice to you. That doesn't mean we have sex together, like you know yeah, yeah I mean, and even yeah it's.
Speaker 2:That was something I feel like in the last like 10 years I have seen just really shift, and so we've we've had those conversations of like, just because you like care about somebody or think they're great or see like things you like about them, like you don't have to make out with them.
Speaker 1:Now, do you like, what do you think about the whole? You know, let's, let's tease this out a little more, because we're not, we're running into the rabbit hole. Warren, not just the whole, the entire Warren, not just the whole, the entire Warren. There are religious beliefs out there that talk about that. Basically, men and women are intended to be together for this purpose and that purpose only. Otherwise, they're in social environments and their relationships are supposed to look a certain way.
Speaker 1:There are certainly belief systems, even if they're not religious, that are, you know, men can't be friends with women, women can't be friends with men. There's all this kind of stuff. That's kind of old stuff, Like there's generational stuff that's wrapped up in there. And then there is the, you know, media-driven, app-driven, find the next relationship and everything else, and in some ways I think it. Somebody asked me what it's like. You know, it's like how do you have a successful marriage? Like, how do you do that? Like I couldn't tell you I, I, the reason I have a successful marriage is because every day, I still want to be with this person. They're my friend.
Speaker 1:I enjoy their time. I enjoy my time with them. I want to. When I have something meaningful to share, they're the first person I think of to share it with.
Speaker 1:And it's like I found. I found my friend and I found somebody that I wanted to share a life with. And you know, I can promise you that we've had arguments and tough times and struggles and things we had to get through and growth that we had to do, but either on our own or together, or both Right At the same time. And you know, like that the relationship changes and if it doesn't grow like, there's so much that I think about when I think about what is a successful relationship. And the other thing that I know is that you, you're not. I'm not resting on my laurels, I'm not. I don't stop working on being someone who is my wife's partner. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like, like every day I'm still thinking about the thing. Like I'm not. Oh, you know. Well, hey, it's done and now I don't do anything, just kind of hang out by myself and do whatever. Like there's not this place.
Speaker 1:I think that we've got a false like and then you're married and things are, you know, rainbows and flowers sprout out of the walls or whatever, or somebody's nice to you and that means that you're going to be together for life. Like we've got these false, these false, you know, ladder of inference, kinds of beliefs and value systems even that are that are. They're arguing with one another, they don't match up, they don't line up. They've got poor information. It's's like as like in your work. How do you help them tease all that out like?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think I would start with, like what you just described is an intimate relationship and it had nothing to do with you guys making out right like it is, I mean yeah, which is good, I mean we Like to be clear.
Speaker 2:I want that to happen, Please make out Right. But what you described is like this is who I want to share things with. I value her insight, you know she. I want to continue. I want to grow on my own, for myself and for her.
Speaker 2:We both have identified that we have to be healthy people separately and then that helps us be healthy together, right?
Speaker 2:And, and I think you know, especially if people get married young or even in just like committed relationships, there's like this you know, marriage is kind of almost like immediate codependency, and then you figure out how to be interdependent, you know, because we do all have these dreams and all of a sudden you're like, oh, you can't actually meet that need for me, and if you do, then that's going to be really weird and this is going to get sick and really unhealthy. I think the other part of it, too, is the commitment that you mentioned. Right, like a huge part of loving someone is being committed to. How can I be the healthiest? How can I also recognize when things are hard and show up and say what do we need to do about this? You know, are we willing to put in the work for it? And you know, I think when you teach people what are the desires you actually have when you are with someone, and they would probably say a lot of the things you just described I want a friend, right.
Speaker 2:I want somebody I can spend time with and you know that wants to hang out, but also has you know, I'm talking just from a male perspective, a female perspective, of course has his or her own life. I want, you know, kind of all of these really amazing things, and then we talk. Okay, so let's talk about the work to get there. And I think that's where I start is like what do you actually want? And if we have that vision, then we can start looking at yeah, let's hold it.
Speaker 2:So then you know when, when somebody comes in.
Speaker 2:I've got a few guys right now that are are in committed relationships, right, and I'm like so tell me how what you just explained to me lines up with your goal of being in a healthy relationship and I'll let them sort that out, because I can't go like. That doesn't sound, you know, sometimes I'm like I don't feel great. Right, like let's talk through that. And you know um a guy a few weeks ago he realized he goes. I keep, I really like her, but we are not good together, and I just felt like that was such an incredible revelation, cause that's the other pieces. You can really think somebody is great and not and they might be yeah yeah, she's not a bad person because you don't want to marry her that's
Speaker 1:okay, you know, yeah, so I think the other thing is that's, that's, that's in there. You know, befuddling things is uh, the whole distress tolerance for a person in recovery from addiction and you know they get relatively little distress tolerance. You know any pain is too much pain. You know hyperdendritic neurosensitivity, right, is that what it's called? Any pain is too much pain? Yeah, sounds great. Yeah, well, you know, with opiate addicts.
Speaker 2:Sounds really smart.
Speaker 1:Especially people who are treating pain with opiates. It's when the you know the dendrites they get. Instead of three dendrites as pain receptor, you've got 40, you know like it's like, ah, everything's you know, any loneliness is too much loneliness.
Speaker 1:Right, like so, yeah, or any work I have to do for this relationship is too much work. It's like if it's not easy all the time constantly and feels great, then it must not be working. It's like, right, yeah, wait. Um, one realization is, like you say, this guy is like you know, I like her as a person and I you know, but I don't think we're good together. The other one is now that it's gotten hard, I need to cut it off. It's like, wait a minute. Is it because that it's gotten hard? Is it something that's worth working on? Exactly On the other side of whatever work it takes to get through this difficult moment, is there something there that might be worth it, that might be greater than the concept you have now for it?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I think that again, that goes back to like that vision, like what? What is a healthy, what is healthy confrontation? Like we spend a lot of time on healthy confrontation. We spend a lot of time on healthy confrontation. We spend a lot of time on being honest with how we feel and then seeing how someone reciprocates and in this guy's case it was. He recognized that he becomes an unhealthier person when they are spending time together. He's like when, when I'm with her, I don't want to work my program, I don't you know what I mean. I know she will let me get away with things. Like I'm starting to see the codependency in there, right, and. And so I mean again, this was like you know, I was very, it was a good, it was a good session.
Speaker 1:You were walking around the office with flags.
Speaker 2:I know, I was like am I the greatest therapist? It wasn't me, I promise. But yeah, but yes. Then there's the other of like well, she, you know, this got on my nerves, or he got on my nerves, she got on my nerves, like whatever it is, and it just is like, well, so again, what's the vision? Like, is it worth it to you? Like, what is this person? And I'll tell you and this may be really mean and you can feel free to edit it out- but Tell me straight, doc, I can take it.
Speaker 2:Like a lot of people, when they're sick and someone is dating them, I'm like what's wrong with them that they would want to be with you Because you're an incredibly unhealthy person. So what's wrong with them that they would want to be with you? And often there is a lack of respect. They are keeping this person around to meet a need, right? Same thing. I'm uncomfortable, they'll make me feel special for a minute or they'll, you know, whatever it is, and I'm like that's not a healthy person, doesn't make them a bad person. That's not a healthy person. It doesn't make them a bad person. That's not a healthy person.
Speaker 2:And I think you have probably seen this over the years, as even people are in committed relationships or marriages. When one of them gets healthy, the other one who looked healthy come to find out isn't really so much. And they don't necessarily really want their spouse or significant other to get healthy, because then what's their role? Yeah, and I see that a lot really want their spouse or significant other to get healthy, because then what's their role? Yeah, and and I see that a lot, I see that a lot. So you know, the spouse gets healthy and then all of a sudden, the wife is, you know or significant other is like wait a second.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of divorce out there these days. I see it all the time, um, client side and otherwise. It's just yeah, somebody does something that's significant in terms of change, or maybe they make a poor choice, who knows. There are all kinds of reasons. But the gig is up, new information is here, and then people are like, yeah, no, actually. Information is here. And and then people like, yeah, no, actually. And and you know, I I wonder how. I mean, as you grow older, I think.
Speaker 1:I think that if you do any work at all, insight is inevitable. Now, there are plenty of people walk through life without a whole lot of insight, sure, but if you do any work at all and you set any intent and you, you get in front of somebody like you that asks you a question like you just had, like you so, and you that question. I don't need an answer from you now, but that question is going to rattle around. You know it is like it. Yeah, it won't go. It's like a splinter in your mind will go away, um, and then, all of a sudden, out of that comes something that you can see and it's maybe, it's a lovely, maybe you don't like it, you know, and then you know insight is inevitable.
Speaker 1:And then, when insight happens, you know the the whole scene changes. The whole scene changes and that, I think, is terrifying for people and I think that's why they don't do it. Yeah yeah I mean, I think it's got to be terrifying to sit in your office for a lot of these guys like oh gosh, probably yeah I gotta go see yeah, yeah I do get.
Speaker 2:They avoid me a lot. Yeah, I will say, though, like, hopefully, right, right, when you're asking these kinds of questions, it is the time has been taken. You know, I'm very intentional about this. Like I have to earn the right to say those things to you, right, whatever that looks like, and that doesn't have to take a long time, um, but I know, for me, the best things that have ever happened in my life was someone who was willing to say this doesn't look good, right, I don't know that you're actually proud of the way you just acted.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you know what I mean, and they separated it from me as a person. You know I have mentors that they're not calling me a bad person, but they're saying what just happened doesn't align with who I think you want to be or who I know you to be, and if they had not said those things and look, sometimes it's actually probably pretty often it's my husband. He is happy to tell me, you know, and thankfully we have that kind of relationship, you know, but you have to have that I think there is a trust, even though those questions are not great. But I also give people the space, and I know you do this too, to come back and go. I know what you said and this is really bad and I'm not going to do anything about it, but you know what that's ownership and I'll take it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was in a conversation with somebody in recovery one time. It was a professional event and all kinds of people and we were in this conversation and we were talking about giving people feedback. And we were talking about somebody. I was like I don't spend a lot of time with that person. I I they do, they do things that make me feel uncomfortable and I just choose not to be around them. And they were like, well, why wouldn't, why wouldn't you tell them that? Why don't you just give that feedback? I'm like giving people feedback is a, is a is a heavy emotional investment in relationship.
Speaker 1:You know, is a heavy emotional investment in relationship. Yeah, that's good. You need to have permission for one. Just to even relate to a person on that level, I need to give a damn too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, then there's that Like I need to care about you not about necessarily us, you know, or anything Like I need to. I need to care about you in order to be willing to kind of take the vulnerability, risk of sharing an opinion that you might not like to hear with you. Like that's, I don't want to just do. I'm not walking around the world just giving people feedback about stuff that they're doing. That's the way to be. You're going to make, you're going to make enemies very quickly, I think, but like that's a, it's kind of a sacred thing. You know what I mean, um, and I think good therapists like, like yourself, um, create a sacred space in their office create a sacred space in their office.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I gosh, I love everything you just said so much. I'm gonna try to be really cool about it, but you have to have permission and I, I and it is sacred and that is, like you said, vulnerability and connection and, yes, there's both sides. It is number one. I have to actually care about you, to say it like, and I also am of the mindset not everyone belongs to me, not everyone belongs to you. If I'm walking around, like you said, the whole world, just telling everybody what we see, that's incredibly judgmental and unkind, right? So I can say the same thing to someone I have permission to speak into their life, and that is kind. But if I say it over here with someone I don't have permission, that is cruel and, in my opinion, yeah right and and so there's kind of this, um, it's this thing.
Speaker 2:I kind of keep remind myself because I think, like you know, if you're in this field and you love it, you know you can see things. Like you can see stuff in people they don't see. Yet I hope my joke is like I'm only good at two things. This is one of them. Like I don't know where states are, like don't ask me, you know what I mean. Like I don't ask me, you know what I mean. Like I don't know. It's fine and I'm really good with that. By the way, I don't need to know. Um, but I have this phrase like don't spank the neighbor's kids, meaning if I'm standing in my yard and the neighbor's kids are acting a fool, as we would say those of us from louisiana, you know, and I go and spank them, that's abuse right.
Speaker 2:If my kid is in my yard acting a fool and I spank him and this is for the story nobody should be offended by the discipline I'm using. But that's discipline, right? It's not so the same action in two different relationships. And so I think when people try to even people they know, but if you don't actually have permission to speak into this, I think you really need to consider what your motives are like. What's actually the point? Is it that you are caring for them well, it or not?
Speaker 1:yeah, or you're using it as a power dynamic, because that's your need exactly I think we see that in the field too, like a lot more than we should. Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 2:Don't spank the neighbor's kids. That's how I say it to myself. Often I'm like that is not yours, just go away, step away.
Speaker 1:Wow, I think we need to make bumper stickers and t-shirts.
Speaker 2:don't spank the neighbor's kids, they're not yours, they're not yours to spank, and we'll have the capacity for everybody anyway.
Speaker 1:So just remember that and I think that you know you talk about that. And guys who enter your program, you know you talk about that. And guys who enter your program, you know they walk in by choice. They walk in knowing what it is that they've gotten into.
Speaker 1:And I think that people get hung up on this a little bit. It's like, well, you know you're in a paid role, how can that still be genuine? It's like just I'm paid to do my job Doesn't mean that I don't care or that I don't feel, or that I'm not giving you everything that I've got. I'm giving you. I'm here, I'm doing the work that's mine. Sure, I get paid to do that, but I'm doing it in a way that, because I know how to honor this relationship, and that's something that's going to be super important in order for you to, for me to ask questions and you to be vulnerable and there to be growth out of this experience. And you, you need somebody and I was. I had another interview we're talking about. He's talking about holding space, like we're going to hold, we're going to hold the space for you to make these steps, yep, and sometimes they're going to be uncomfortable. Sometimes I've got to ask questions that you don't have answers to, and when you finally do have answers to them, they're going to be uncomfortable, but it's going to be worth it, you know. In the end it's going to be worth what comes out of it, in your opinion, though.
Speaker 1:You know there are, certainly you know you get guys that come through your program. You guys have got a good program, you've got a strong clinical structure, you've got you in charge of it, like there's a lot of checks and balances going on and and how these guys develop and you get a pretty high success rate. But there are also guys that come out and they don't make it out. On the other side, they go, they, they, they leave early, or they leave for the wrong reasons, or they leave and they do something not following through with recommendations that have been made for them over and over again, and I know what their recovery is supposed to look like, but they do not do that. What's the difference between the, between the, the, that? What's the difference between the, between the, the, the client? That?
Speaker 2:makes it and the client that doesn't do you think Surrender? Oh, wow that was quick and I love that response. I think about it all of the time. Can you come to a place and go? Maybe I don't like any of this, but I know that what I'm doing is not working and y'all seem to know, and I'm going to see what happens, because surrender doesn't mean trust people that aren't trustworthy. Don't do that, doesn't mean give up either.
Speaker 1:Doesn't mean give up either.
Speaker 2:Doesn't mean give up. It just means I don't know what I'm supposed to do. You tell me what I'm supposed to do, I'm going to try that and let's see what happens. Right, it's not a. It's also not a sick, you know. You help me, and if you can't help me, no one can't like. It's none of that. It's just you know. Um, we've got a guy right now that I'm just in awe of and he has been through it. I think he's at 20 something treatments and he just came in and goes just tell me where to be and when to be there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it. I just respect that so much. But that is the difference I I have seen guys are like you know, they're fighting it and they'll say, what do I need to do? And I've said the best thing you could do, cause you know there's always like when can I get out of here, which I get? I mean, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, you just got here, so not today. Yeah, right, four days ago, yeah, but it's like I want you, so not today. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right Four days ago, yeah, it was like I want you out of here Cause I'm very intentional and I'm efficient. I want you out of here the second you don't have to be here. I want you to go live your life and I want you to thrive. And you know Right, and our, our founders are. I mean, that is the heart. But I've told a couple of guys. They're like, what do I have to do? And I said the people that make it are the ones that come and say I'm not leaving until you tell me I'm ready.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and they can wrestle with that and we can like talk about it, but they and and I and they'll, and they'll say oh, I'm ready, I'm like no, no, no, this is not, don't tell me that now if you're, if you have to say that yeah
Speaker 2:it's probably wrong yeah, like you need to go think about what you are surrendering. You're saying I am giving this over and I am trusting that when you guys say I'm ready, I'm trusting you're not taking advantage of me, that you're not. You know all those things which, again, of course, you're going to wrestle with that along the way, and those guys are just, they're just doing so well, and it's I just again, I'm just in awe of that.
Speaker 1:I respect it because it's so hard for any of us to do. It's a beautiful thing to witness, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it holds me accountable to it too. What are the things that you know just cause I may not use substances right, it's a little less urgent in my life, but what are the things that I haven't really surrendered? And you know that's the fun part about being a therapist is when you say something to someone and it's like that was probably for me too probably yeah, especially if it, if it nestles and you walk out the door and it's still walking with you.
Speaker 2:It's like hey you said something today especially as a parent. Oh my gosh but I'm you know when I hear something like I should probably be better at that right so yeah, but that's it. That's what I would say. Sorry if that answer was way too long, but no, I, I, that's.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's the only answer, right like the yeah, you know, surrender is not abandonment, it's not quitting, it's a very, very special thing yeah that, um, and you know the whole like well, you, you can't fix this with the same mind that created it.
Speaker 1:So how do you change your mind? You surrender it. You surrender your mind to a process and to trust and to community and connection. And you know, I, you know, at the bottom of the list of what makes recovery work. Abstinence is at the bottom of that list. Is it important? Of course you do, but abstinence is not, it's not health.
Speaker 2:No, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1:And so, like you know, you get a lot of people who get sailed into a method and you know 12 steps. Great. Whatever your model is, find it. If it, if it speaks to you, if you resonate with it. Find, find what your model is. Find the. Find the path that you can walk, or make a connection with the path that's in front of you. You're going to make it your own anyway. It's going to become your own. If it's going to be effective, it's going to become your own. But you may not know where the destination is yet because you've never seen it before.
Speaker 2:So all you can do is render that's right.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's terrifying, I get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, and we don't, of course, like you're saying like I would never be trite with that. You know, just like, like I'm not, like well, just give it over, I would slap someone if they said that to me, like I don't, I'd be so upset. You know, like I, um, and even like like what you were talking about when we just had our clinical team meeting earlier and one of the clinicians was like you know this, this client keeps wanting to just talk about, like well, I might smoke weed one day, I might do it, I might do it, I might do it. And finally and this is our deal, how we handle this. Often he's like I don't care, I don't want to talk about that. I want to know how you treated your family when you were on vacation.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like I want to talk about how are you living your life. Like. This substance means nothing to me right now. You know, like how do we?
Speaker 1:it's just a projection anyway for you to not be here with me now, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, and if somebody came in with whatever you're dealing with substances or anything else, right, if every time you went to counseling they're like, well, did you do that thing? How was it? Did you do that thing? How was it? Did you do that? You know, did you struggle with that thing? It's like, well, it is not about not doing the thing, it's about, you know, healing and finding these parts of yourself that looks like that causes you to get there if you get there and you find yourself to be healthy and then you decided to smoke.
Speaker 1:whatever the point is that you're making decisions with a healthy mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's the point that's so good, that's yes, I just need to. You have got to get healthy. Whatever decisions you make out of hell, whatever.
Speaker 1:I'm, I'm, I'm down with that. Yeah, yeah, that's the one.
Speaker 2:Have you been healthy before? They're like no, Okay. Well, let's just try that first.
Speaker 1:Let's try that first. Let's start there. Shall we, yeah, before we decide what you're going to do after you're healthy, let's, let's, let's aim for healthy first.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I'm like look, I will. I love to debate, I will argue with you about all kinds of things, but I'm not going to argue with you about, you know, like the substance itself is not evil. And I think that you know we have kind of this um illogical idea, or you know, of like making this thing whatever it is. We struggle with bad and I think that that actually keeps us entangled with it yeah, there's a, it's part of there's a.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a, it's part of there's a. I like to dabble in all the various, you know, philosophical arts, if you will, from different theoretical models that there are in psychology. I love looking at a new model or, you know, just put my toe in. I'm not practitioner, you know. I put my toe in philosophy and everything else, so I had to pick and just kind of like pick bits and pieces out and be like this is really cool, this could be.
Speaker 1:And so the first two lessons in the course in miracles. As far as I'm, as far as I was concerned, I could have set the book down after those two.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:First lesson is is you walk, you basically walk around and you like, like that doesn't mean anything, and you say it to the kitchen sink and you say it to your mom in your own mind You're like that doesn't mean anything. People places things, objects, your car, everything. You just spend a few minutes letting things go from their meaning. The second one is any meaning that has is meaning I gave it, and it's like those will unwrap your brain and your psyche from a ton of stuff so quickly that it'll be disorienting, like you're're like, wow, like you know the thing that's on my phone or the person that walked by, or my car.
Speaker 1:It's like that isn't any meaning. It has this meaning. I gave it. You know it's just a car, it's. It's just a machine, it's just a word. You know, in the end, by themselves, they're just you. You know this painting on my wall is just a bunch of colors thrown onto a thing. It means something to me. If you could, if you look close enough, you can't see it, but there's a turtle in it. It's like, which is the nickname my wife has for me. Like you know, like any meaning it has is meaning.
Speaker 1:I gave it yeah and you start unwrapping all that business.
Speaker 2:It's pretty cool, terrifying it is yes and pretty cool at the same time like we, yeah, like we don't realize how we function in life, giving meaning to things that maybe don't really matter all that much. But what I love about what you're talking about is it it makes you drill down what you actually value, yeah, and why you value it, and and kind of gets rid of all the noise. There's just so much noise. My, my husband, he's a school psychologist and we were talking about, like when you have these kids that are so smart, but their filters are so big yum yeah, but, yeah.
Speaker 2:But you know like, if, like all joking aside like you do like an IQ test or whatever, and they've got these really high cues with their processing speeds are like a little bit slower not not slow, but slower- than right and it's.
Speaker 2:It's not that they don't they're not, they don't have great processing speeds, it's that they are filtering everything, and I think we've kind of created this world yeah, like we've created this world that we're trying to filter everything at all times and it would be so incredibly uncomfortable to do what you just talked about.
Speaker 2:But I love it so much because that's what I feel like we're always fighting for. There are actually very few things that we really value and wouldn't give up, and when you realize that you made up what that means to you, nobody else did because we fight for it usually against our parents or our spouses or whatever and it's like none of this actually matters. But let's find out what does and you can actually handle that, because it's like a few things you're actually designed to handle it right, yeah, yeah, well, it's so.
Speaker 1:Here comes the sci-fi side of me. It's like you know the scene, the last thing in the matrix, you know he's just, you know he's, he's experienced to death, he doesn't actually die right, and he stands back up and they shoot a bunch of bullets at him and he's, you know, they all stop in front of him and he looks, he just picks up one bullet, he looks at it, lets it go, and they all drop to the floor and and everything's just like. He sees everything for what it is. Yeah, and it's like that's kind of what you're trying to do with your life. You know what I mean. Like people are throwing all this, you think you're filtering all this information and bullets are flying and you know it's like actually, no, actually there are, no, there actually aren't any bullets here at all. Right, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like it's like yeah, keep reacting to projected imaginary things and commanding your life as if it was chaos, when it, in many ways, it's really quite simple. Yes, yeah, and guess what? We can grieve that.
Speaker 1:Well, it's great, it's okay, it's all right that it's weird and uncomfortable and you don't like it, you know yeah, all right, gr, that was a life and you're going to let it and you're going to surrender and that, whatever that was, it'll go away. But you know, another quote from another one of these sources is like you'll put these things aside as a child sets aside toys, not because they are unworthy, but because you've outgrown them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, yeah. Well, look, I'm like, I'm just going to like let's spend some time Making me miss college.
Speaker 1:I need to come back out to Texas, man.
Speaker 2:We need to hang out some more you know so good yeah, and I think that's it too. I think that the stages of life, you know, I still, I, um, I still teach like online psychology, which is ridiculous.
Speaker 2:I don't know why I do it, but you need something else to do with your time right yeah, I think I've tried to quit like four times and they just keep assigning me classes and I'm just like you know but one of them's like child development, you know, and and it's I'm so fascinated to see, like in that same vein, like you know, we kind of always have these clear developmental stages, but like what the research on our development has changed, you know, just with and I hate to even, it feels so cliche to even talk about like with social media and with the internet and like you know, they had this article come out about how, like Southern accent is like going away, which I mean, if you're listening to me right now, you find that very hard.
Speaker 2:That's right, you know, like our non-regional dialects, I guess because of you know all this exposure, um, but I just I'm fascinated to see what happens next. But I think that you know there's always kind of been this cliche like I don't really want to grow up and like I don't really you know what I. But there's even meaning in that and there's even and, like you said, we don't have to like make things. You give them up cause you're mad at them or they're. You know that sucks now or I don't like that, it's like no, it just doesn't serve you well anymore and we can find new. Yeah, it doesn't fit and that's okay.
Speaker 2:And again, like I said, like let's grieve it, be grateful for what it gave you and for what you learned in that season. And you know, even when you're working with like severe trauma victims like you, wouldn't tell somebody like every aspect of your life through that season was just like worthless and we should just throw it all away. That's not true. Like our resilience comes out of these awful things. And you know there are things that are learned. Nothing is just all wasted, do I wish?
Speaker 2:you know, we wouldn't have to go through them. Sure, but you can't disqualify everything. I think that's very unwise, and I think there's like this tendency to either make your trauma like your full story, and so that's all you identify with, so you can't move on, or to be like let's pretend none of this ever happened. Right, we're kind of on like two ends of the spectrum.
Speaker 1:You throw the baby out with the bathwater. You know what I mean. Like like the whole um I the. What you're talking about, of course, is also you see, people who experience, who you know, suffer from personality disorder. They're grappling with that. They're they feel very attached to it. It's almost like an OCD thing, like they can't give any of it up, or if they're going to give it up, they don't know how to not give all of it up.
Speaker 1:They don't know where this, this alignment, place lives. Yeah, because they've never really experienced it and the. The thing I love telling guys especially um, I think, I think women you can speak for women and I I don't. You know, we've got a whole gender fluid thing we could start talking about and run down the rabbit hole if we want to, sure, but you know, like from a, if we're going to generalize my experience of women is is that they, they have a tendency to be more in touch with feeling. They have, they have words for feeling and they can identify feeling. Guys get out there and you know it's. There's two feelings there's hungry and angry and maybe horny, and you know. So alignment is a, is a feeling, and the.
Speaker 1:The thing I was like, and the cool thing is, is that it's not outside of you. Yeah, it's always with you. You can't, you couldn't get rid of it if you tried, like you were you and all you got to do is stand still a minute in your mind, obviously, like in all the other ways, but also in your mind. If you stand still just a minute and like learn how to be present for just a minute, you're going to get it, you're going to get a dose of it and it's like seeing the sun for the first time. It's like you can't unsee the sun, you can't do it. It's like for a person who's seen the sun for the first time. It's like, oh wow, that's impressive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, feels important, feels important. This thing, I just you know that's impressive, you know it feels important. Yeah, it's important that this thing I just you know I that was cool and I think maybe that's important. I probably you're not going to be able to forget that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1:And I, you know, I think that what you're doing, the work you're doing, is it's just creating space for those guys to have a moment like that, for a second. They know what alignment looks like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, space for those guys to have a moment like that for a second, so they know what alignment looks like. Yeah, thank you. Good on you, thank you for doing it. Yeah, I I mean, and to be clear, like I do it here at at lighthouse and I think you saw this because of the people I work with, because this is not something I could ever do alone and we have a ownership and a leadership team and a group of people that are always so aligned and if we're not, we go.
Speaker 2:Oh, that feels weird. How do we get back aligned? Because we have something to compare it to, right? And that's what I just love is like, if you know, when I, when I, worked with this organization and we had, you know, all these young women that were out of trafficking situations and the staff would get frustrated in some ways because it's hard work, right, they're like you know, they just don't, they're not doing this or that or whatever. And I'm like you, or maybe they decide to leave or whatever it is Like, but you are a healthy person. They have never met one of those before.
Speaker 2:They now can go out into the world and they have something to compare it to and often they go oh, I don't like this anymore, right, if all you know is sickness and unhealth, then what's you know? There's no difference. But if they come and can have a little bit of health and see a little bit of health, then we have something to actually wrestle with, to figure out. Wait, where do I want to be aligned? And, yes, it's that same thing, like, if things get wobbly, we just talk about it and get back in line and I am. It's just honest and real and I'm so grateful because I could not carry one second of this without that team and community and we try to live out the same things we were encouraging, you know, our guys to live out is how do we function in community in a healthy way. So I'm just I'm super grateful for it. I'm excited you got to be here and kind of see that too. I think you know people.
Speaker 2:People talk like, oh, my team, I don't think I'd be doing this if it was not yeah with his team, like I'd go find something else to do I don't know what because I don't know where states are but I'd figure something out, you know yeah, well, what the?
Speaker 1:the quote that comes to me is the tide raises all boats and it's like you guys and your alignment is this tide and the guys that you serve are the boats, and it's greater than any one of you, right, and it's hard to attack. Yes, I can attack a person, I can even attack a belief system if it's coming from a person, right, but this like aligned value system is, I mean, what do you like? You can't, you can't fight that. No.
Speaker 2:Oh no, it's like trying to push her river.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Like yeah it's the river. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:It's the river.
Speaker 1:It's the river Like, and eventually you know the cool thing is is that you can try to fight it, but it's bigger than you are, like a lot bigger, and it's going to wear you out and that's going to be useful for you yeah it is, and the cool thing on the side is it doesn't wear the river out, that's it, we're all we're fine, we're fine, it's fine.
Speaker 2:You know, I love when people are like you know what I used to get so mad at you? I'm like okay, they're like that doesn't bother you. Yeah, yeah, I'm safe. You can be mad, it's all right.
Speaker 2:You know, but yeah, we never have to worry about our team splitting and like those and our team splitting and like those, and that's just such I mean again, as you've done this work like it's when you can trust these people, that you're in the trenches with it just is such a relief. And it's also safe for the people you're helping, because they realize like, oh, these people are, it's one voice, we're all communicating the same, we're honoring each other. And then people are, oh, this we're honoring each other. And then people are, oh, this is safe, I can't triangulate it, I can't manipulate it.
Speaker 1:That's trustworthy can't destroy it can't destroy it.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's, it's a pretty. I'm just very grateful truly well, brooke, it's.
Speaker 1:Uh, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. I'm sure we could spend the rest of our day just hanging out right here.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know. Having fun watching movies and talking about the work I appreciate you so much. Yeah yeah, I think I got to get out to Asheville. I want to see those hills.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you would be most welcome.
Speaker 2:Talk about philosophy.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, Mike makes the trip every once in a while. You tell him to bring you along next time We'll do it for real.
Speaker 2:Yes, he told me he would.
Speaker 1:It's been a pleasure to have you on the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:You're very welcome. This is Mental Health Matters on WPBM 1037, the Voice of Asheville. I'm Todd Weatherly, your host. We'll be with you next time, take care.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you.