Why are we falling for scams?

We know that not everything can be trusted online – but are we so lacking in real life – that the scam becomes a “beautiful fantasy”?  We speak with cyber-security expert Danny Eastman on what to do when you have been scammed…but also what changes may need to be made “IRL” for us to realise that the offline world has the potential to be far more fulfilling.

About the Show

Each Thursday at 4pm, we broadcast on LinkedIn and YouTube, with the podcast released on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more. 

Then every Friday at 8am, you’ll also receive a bonus podcast episode - a carefully selected recent conversation offering practical insight and timeless support.

Wherever you listen, you’re invited to pause, reflect, and reconnect: 

PODCAST: https://mentalhealthmatters.buzzsprout.com

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5dbYRwciNQ3c2hZwpsfxnNIvpijH4S2b 

Today's show is hosted by

Dr Audrey Tang www.draudreyt.com  @draudreyt

and Judith Crosier https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556005102240

Guest Expert:

Danny Eastman

https://cyber-fortified.com/m/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:10

Welcome to Mental Health Matters. I'm Dr. Audrey Tang.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

And I'm Judith Crozier.

SPEAKER_05 0:14

And this is the show where we talk about all things mental health and well-being, but we do not use quick fixes or hot takes. It is expert-led conversation to keep you well and to keep you making healthy choices. Today's topic is staying safe online, and we do talk about this a lot, but we've looked at it in the sense of what a cybercrime can do to you, how it can make you feel, how you can stay safe with things like passwords. But I think we also need to look at particularly vulnerable groups. And this is the subject of today's conversation. You have young people, so they might click on a link and not think about who it is. But I know from my own experience it was my parents staying safe online that was the biggest concern. Because not only would they click on links generally, but if anything untoward happened, they wouldn't always tell me. Right. So you can't fix it. You can't do anything about that. What's been your experience, maybe, with with senior people?

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Yeah, I worry about my mum because the same, I mean, she's quite computer savvy in what she needs to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

But I don't think she's really aware of um the scale of scams and um online fraud, etc. etc. So sometimes she'll get a um a suspicious-looking text message if I'm with her and she'll say, Oh, what do you think about this? But I worry about everything that, like you say, that happens when I'm not with her and she doesn't say.

SPEAKER_05 1:45

Yeah. And then you've also got the catfishing going on. Yes. And the other concern that I've seen a lot of documentaries on and I I've read a lot about are the romance scams.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:58

Because people are lonely and they are just looking for someone to have a chat with. And it starts pretty innocuously, starts with uh words with friends or scrabble or those kinds of things, and then suddenly you start talking to someone, and then it develops into more of a conversation, and that can be a way that friendships are formed, perfectly normal. Yes, and yet that can then end up being, oh, could I borrow some money?

SPEAKER_03 2:25

That happened to an aunt of mine. Oh no. Yeah. So on Facebook through it through again. And she ended up giving a lot of money away and obviously never getting it back. So um, but the problem is she did it again, so she was taken in twice. I know. Oh gosh. And you would think once bitten twice, shy, but obviously not.

SPEAKER_05 2:45

Well, there's two scams also that run. You've got the romance scam, and then you've got another group of scammers who then come in and say, Have you just been romance scammed? No. Say that they're going to take all the details to the police, but you must give me all your details. And you've already felt stupid once.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Yeah. And then someone's trying to help you.

SPEAKER_05 3:06

It's it's so psychological.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

They just prey on vulnerable people, whoever they are, don't they?

SPEAKER_05 3:12

Yes. So today we are bringing back Danny Eastman. He is from Cyber Fortified, he's a cybersecurity expert. Let's meet him.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Hi, and welcome to the show, Danny. It's really great to see you again.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

Um, let's jump straight in. So, um, we're talking about online safety. What would you say that that means and how has it changed up until now?

SPEAKER_00 3:40

I think um I think online safety isn't just about technology anymore. I think it's become about people, manipulation, and above all, trust. If we think about online safety today, that now includes things like scams and fraud, grooming and coercion, also identity impression, and the big one, I think, emotional manipulation. The risk is less technical hacking and more I would go so far as to say psychological engineering and uh the sort of wider sort of access to AI has mean we've seen uh has meant we've seen a massively accelerated scale, I think, uh realization, uh or should say realism and realization how technology uh is profoundly dangerous in in certain contexts, let's say. But also I think the speed at which it happens, yes and which they happen.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And since the last time we spoke, there's been talks and moves to ban smartphones in schools, um, and also for children having them in general until they're 16. What do you think about that um potential change in legislation?

SPEAKER_00 5:02

I think it's really important. I think um children, let's call them minors, because I think that kind of really hits it home when you use that word minors. Uh I don't know why, but there seems to be a psychology behind that word. You know, they have access to the entire world, and most parents won't monitor what their children are doing. Uh, doors have been closed by teenagers since the dawn of time. Um, that becomes a lot more dangerous when uh let's call it open access uh is now available from a smartphone. And I think it's it's quite interesting how Australia has recently banned social media for under-16s, and I think that's an incredibly important move. Uh it I think if social media had been monitored from the beginning, I think we'd be seeing a very different landscape now. But the reality is we didn't understand what social media would become.

SPEAKER_05 6:04

It's uh I can't remember her name, but the author who wrote Smartphones, Dumb Parents, Dumb as In, Can't Say Anything, spoke about you'd never leave a child in the middle of New York, but that's effectively what you've done and they've got access to online. But we we've talked a lot about social media, we've talked a lot about online bullying, all of those things. We know that's still an issue, but there is a bigger issue now coming up, which is AI and deepfakes and um the manipulation that can happen there. So, with that in mind, why are adults and children particularly vulnerable, not just in terms of safety in itself, but in believing something that is not true and then potentially spreading that and then causing the misinformation to spread and so on, because a lot of this AI stuff is very, very realistic.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Yes, it is, and um, we've seen uh Elon Musk's Brock AI in the news for all the wrong reasons recently. Um, and it I I won't go into it here, but um, you know, your viewers can can cucko that themselves. Uh, but it was certainly off the back of the Stranger Things uh final season. One of the uh sort of breakout stars of that was a young British actress called Nell Fisher, and I think she's 14 currently, and she was subjected to some rather disturbing generative AI, let's put it that way. And it was uh identified as uh as being uh created using Groc AI. So I think you know there are so many dangers there, but I think the problem is, even though we've got different ages, just to kind of get to the crux of the question, we've got different ages, but I think the psychological levers are the same. Having young children myself, I can see that they're still developing their judgment and the way that they judge things. Um older adults currently, I think it might be different in generations to come, potentially, but older adults may be unfamiliar with modern modern digital tactics. Yeah. And I and I think that's again, this is why what comes brings me back to uh education being um important in that that resilience that we need to build, both in young people, older people, but actually all of us there in the middle as well.

SPEAKER_05 8:27

Where is the biggest threat? We always talk about threat with the entry point of weakness, wherever that is. But that I can see weaknesses in gaming platforms. You get talking to people, you think they're who they are, you've spoken ages doing campaigns with them or whatever, you think you know them. So that's one area. Social media, another one, just a friend request pops up, oh, I like your pictures, so and it's attention. Um, messaging apps, again, that puts you into a private situation, or then you've got the AI, which is it's a different type of threat, whereby you can use the generative AI, you can do all kinds of things with photographs that are already out there. Um, and then of course you've got a completely different threat, which is the uh use of or misuse of chat GPT, where you get it to write your essays or whatever. Which of those is the biggest problem in terms of the entry point, in terms of the gateway?

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Chat features, in-game purchases, risks of grooming. I think where the digital safety actors come in uh to stop young children from being able to access certain features on games, I think that's really crucial. Messaging services like Signal, Telegram, uh, WhatsApp, even, and the like. There are a few more out there. They're great for security, but of course, it does also mean that people can masquerade as peers, uh, masquerade as other, you know, children of roughly the same age, or even young adults of roughly the same age. And again, moving on to AI, we just spoke about it, we've spoken about it before, deep fakes, voice cloning is very easy. I believe I shared an article with you actually, Audrey, which was about AI psychosis. Uh, and that's that's I think that's the next uh mental health epidemic. The phrase I'm going to Google it, yes started to seep into society. And I think similarly, we're gonna get this. Let me just check with Chat GPT.

SPEAKER_05 10:32

We will, we will, we will. Whilst you were talking, the other thing about messaging apps is you that's where you get access to the dark web. Things like Telegram, all of that, that's where people look. That's right. Because the messages aren't quite, they're more encrypted, it's a it's a different kind of setup to your usual WhatsApps and and so on. Um, Danny, we are keeping you, and we will be back after a tip from Danny when he was on the show previously.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

But when when people come forward and they say they've been invaded or they felt that somebody's intruded onto their privacy, they're absolutely right. Because if we kind of sum this whole thing up that we're discussing in this section, their digital world has been weaponized.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 11:27

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters. We are talking about staying safe online with the new developments which are getting more and more, I think, pressing to deal with, including things like AI, Chat GPT, and how we are changing mentally and emotionally to become more in line on these and to believe everything. And we have got cybersecurity expert Danny Eastman with us. He's been on the show before, he's helped us change our passwords and people can say something. But today we are talking about seniors and children, and actually everyone in between can learn from this as well. But children and seniors can be more emotionally manipulated. You started talking about emotional manipulation, and I want to pull at that thread a little bit further. Um, what similarities do you see between a young child and an older adult? Is it the fact that they've got fewer people to check out with? As in, if I get something I can say to Jesus, do you think this is okay? But maybe as a child or as a senior, I might not have that network, or is it that they just haven't learned or have forgotten, or is it the shame thing? What is going on in terms of emotional manipulation of young people and and adults and seniors?

SPEAKER_00 12:42

I think it's uh pulling it back to what we spoke about before, it's it's a development of judgment when it comes to the younger children. And I think uh there is most likely an anxiety and panic that is caused, perhaps, uh, with seniors. Again, if we think about phishing emails or any kind of uh attack which starts uh some would say almost gently, there's always false urgency in those attacks, you know, act now or lose everything. And it's not subtle, but it's gentle because it doesn't go straight for the jugular, we want money if you don't do this. Yeah, it's it's playing to an emotion. So if we think about what emotional hooks are there, we've got uh fear, love, authority, that you know, that that's not the exhaustive exhaustive list there. We can probably kind of add a few more there, but those are the kind of the three ones that we've seen, certainly in case studies. Um another thing, um requests to keep secrets. If you think about how a child is, you know, the pinky promise or the pinky swear, it's it's very childlike. So, you know, groomers know exactly the language to use, the childlike language which would resonate with a child. Equally, um, scammers know that uh senior people are more likely to panic if put under pressure.

SPEAKER_05 14:13

Let's look at loneliness, and this is more a societal problem, which I think is being falsely solved oddly enough by scamming. So bear with me on this. You have people who would are so lonely, they would rather believe the fantasy of this person and give them money and do all of those things because it is so much better than the alternative of actually recognising not only am I alone, but now I've been scammed. Yeah, so I'm not even worth somebody genuinely paying attention to me. That's that's the the problem. Are we creating the society like that? How can we maybe make some changes ourselves in society? Emotional validation, yeah, and that's what Chat GPT is doing.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yes, yes, this is and so again, if if we think you know, we always say about trust, you know, it takes a long time to to gain and a second to lose it. Well, over time, that trust that is built, you know, even if it's a if it's a false trust, it that replaces caution. Yes. And then the scam starts to feel like a relationship, not a crime. Yeah, and then it it's almost it's almost like Stockholm syndrome.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

The perpetrator's lowest of the low, really. Um so if a child or a a senior citizen uh suspects they've been scammed or groomed or being scammed or groomed, um, what should they do immediately? And maybe more importantly or as importantly, what shouldn't they do? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

The first obvious one is what you should do is stop engaging immediately.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

If you have the opportunity to do so, take some screenshots, um, preserve messages, anything that can be used as evidence, it is important. It's not don't worry about whether it's useful or not, or whether you know it will bring that scammer to justice or not. It's important to have it there because that even on its own, as a starter, is education. It's evidence of something that is actually out there, and that you would be helping other people as a minimum, which is not a bad minimum. Tell someone you trust. So if it's if it's a child, it might not be their parents, it might not even be their best friend or their siblings. So I if if that is all kind of big no's for a child, your teacher or a teacher in your school, because we all had that teacher that we all wished was our teacher, and they maybe just gave off the great energy and they had a great smile, go to that teacher. If you can't go to anyone close to you, go to that teacher. Um that teacher will help you then report to the platform you're on and any relevant authorities. This you know, the function of school is not just to teach you how to do well in life, there are other functions uh within the school. So if you get past that, you'll actually find schools being incredibly supportive. And there'll never be judgment uh from anyone around you. Only uh, I'd like to think compassion, love, and support. Uh for whether it's children, seniors, or anyone uh of any age, really, change passwords if needed. If you think you've compromised your accounts or you've shared something, or you think you've clicked on a link, change your passwords. So those are kind of the things that should be done. And you know, not just children or seniors, but any anyone else. So again, stop engaging immediately, preserve evidence, tell someone you trust, report to the platform and the relevant authorities. So we've spoken about people like you know, you can log a police report, you can speak to action fraud as well, and uh if there's anywhere else you need to go, they are gonna be the people that can signpost you even further if if needs be. Now, what you shouldn't do, what you shouldn't do, firstly, know it's really easy for me to say this, do not panic. Do not panic. Do not delete everything straight away. There probably is that uh panic again. If you let panic set in, you think if I delete everything, it's like it never happened.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Um that's very human, isn't it? But don't delete everything straight away. Again, what we spoke about before, preserving evidence can help as a minimum, which is still an amazing minimum, can help other people. Do not send more information or money if there is a either whether they were trying to extort information from you or extort money from you. And the last one, which I think is really key, don't try to fix it on your own. Like I said, there are mechanisms already in place. Certainly, I can speak for this country, which will support you no matter what age you are. And so, especially as a child and especially as a senior, there are mechanisms, do not try to fix it on your own. I won't say that necessarily you'll make it worse, but but you're certainly not going to solve the problem.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

So, if um a child or anybody does um confide in their family, what's happened, how can a family respond calmly so that the person doesn't shut down or you know doesn't want to share anything in the future if anything should happen again?

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Children in particular and seniors, um, but again, you know, it kind of covers the whole range of ages, but in particular, these two demographs, um they feel that shame, they feel they have the fear of being criticized or being told off. And the things that families need to do is it's all about framing. So removing blame entirely. So try to try to think about what blame language would sound like to a child, or what blame language would sound like to a senior. We we tend to overuse the word you. Now, if you're feeling vulnerable and someone is saying you, you, you, it that's that's blame language, I think. And and so avoid lectures or what might come across as interrogation. So children are already gonna be giving themselves a hard time because again, they're still developing judgment. Seniors probably much the same. You know, again, reinforcing this idea, scams happen to everyone. Yeah, that's true. Scams are a constant threat, and they target everyone. So it wasn't something that they did, which meant they put a target on their back. Yeah, a lot of the time, scams are, you know, very few of us in this world are important enough to be targeted by scammers deliberately. Even in its earliest sort of iteration, AI was being leveraged to create more sophisticated attacks. Well, as of today, that is now happening on a far wider scale. So is it going to happen again? Sadly, yes. It's likely to happen again and again and again. The difference is in that education, is in that uh support network, that safe space to allow it to not progress as far as it may have done the first time.

SPEAKER_05 21:55

I think that's absolutely true because at least education takes away the fear. Yeah, and if it's fear. And then you're getting anger or being told off on top of that. It's even worse. So, Danny, we're keeping you, and uh, we will be back after another clip um from Danny's last appearance on the show.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Um if you ever wonder why IT people can sometimes be a bit socially awkward, it's because everybody blames them. So I I I can't I don't blame them for being socially awkward. But the reality is when a cyber attack happens to a company, it affects HR, it affects legal, it affects marketing, the mental health of individuals who are then scrambling to study the shit. Um and and again, we don't think about these things. You know, I've been I've been on you know, I've been part of on-site investigations for um for for small and quite sizable um cyber incidents. And let me tell you, I I I wouldn't be I'm never surprised to see people crying.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters where we're having a really interesting discussion with Danny Eastman about online safety for everyone, but particularly we're talking about young people and older people, um seniors. So uh Danny's got some great advice and um tips. Um so talking about children and um older people, how can parents talk to children about online safety without scaring them or becoming overcontrolling? Um and equally, how can we talk to our our parents about about supporting them and not making them kind of feeling embarrassed or i uh you know talk talking down to them and and making them really uh resistant to talking to us about any worries they may have, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

I mean, with children, it's about making it a conversation and not a warning. Children are are really happy to discuss things. They're not uh uh but they don't like that they won't sit still for a long time. But if you engage with them, then actually they'll start coming up with their own ideas, then they'll start asking questions, and suddenly you've got engagement and you've got buy-in from a child, and suddenly they don't feel bad about what's being spoken about. And I think that's the key difference. I think as parents, you know, as a parent myself, the tendency is to kind of go sort of rushing in uh out of our own panic with older adults. Um I've I've seen on a personal level families try to remove the devices.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Yeah, that's what you go straight into members of their family, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Right? And I would say you have to be very careful there because you know the way they're probably feeling is well, hang on a minute, I raised you, or I'm older than you, I've been around longer. We don't want to knock with their pride. That will really hurt them. That will really hurt them. And again, you know, the the this I bet the phrase you should know better has come up in many a conversation where, you know, uh the adult children of uh of uh of parents who've kind of got themselves in a bit of a a pickle have have heard sort of phrases like that. I think we need to just avoid that patronizing language. And again, just offer support, not control. Because if you do that, again, you get the buy and you get engagement. They don't there's there's no need for a shutdown.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Yeah. That's a that's a very good, very good point. And what would you say the single most important message would be for children and older adults to remember about staying safe online?

SPEAKER_00 26:11

I say this all the time. Stop. Take a breath. Okay, pause before you act. Urgency is the biggest red flag in any scam. The moment you see it, stop. Question that legitimate companies, legitimate advertising, um doesn't use urgency in the same way that scams do. The other thing is people don't like to sit in discomfort. I'm gonna say something crazy. Trust your discomfort. Trust your discomfort. Because at the end of the day, if we think about how you know you've got all these websites, uh, how do we know you're human? Yeah, yeah. Well, do the same.

SPEAKER_04 26:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Verify. Because verification will beat speed every time. Take a second, take a pause, verify. And that's it.

SPEAKER_05 27:07

I think that's a really good point, is to verify it. That's the word. If they're doing that to us, we should be able to do that to them as well. Yes. Um, and I also think you make a very good point there that because I think some companies do use quite nasty language, and HMRC is one of them. That some of the language they've used, we need to think about that in the same way as when we talk about people staying safe online, well, maybe make offline nicer. Because if parents are not taking their children out and doing fun stuff with them, where else do you think they're gonna go? It's make offline better, make the world a nicer place to be in, so you don't go into the borough of online. It's the same thing with seniors, I think. If they're lonely, spend more time with them. Yes, you know, and then don't take their phone away. It's it's a it's yes, it's extra effort and work, but uh I think we need to change society. We've created this as well, and I think we've got a responsibility here. So, on that note, what emerging risks worry you most over the next few years? Because you already talked about AI. What do you think could happen, maybe not even in the next few years, by December?

SPEAKER_00 28:16

I I unfortunately, ladies, I'd go as far as to say it's already here. Yeah, good point. It's already here. Um, AI-generated impersonation is huge right now. We're seeing, of course, we're seeing targeted attacks from high-profile individuals, whether you know who they are or not, anyone high net worth, high profile, uh, and that's in many walks of life, um, from Hollywood to to sports, uh, they of course have uh you know a target on their back. Uh but if we think about a disgruntled worker, before we would worry about an insider threat simply being a leaking of data. Well, commercial AI is available to the masses. So what can a disgruntled worker do now? I think a disgruntled worker can do far more damage. So I think that is a a risk that will emerge. That how that insider threat is changing will will emerge over the next couple of years. Um, voice cloning of family members. I could take any recording right now and use any dodgy app I could find on any of the app stores and probably throw that in. Probably ChatGPT could probably do it, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Yeah, that's frightening.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

We're making a rod for our own backs, yeah, definitely. And we've always had this problem, and that is the speed of the attacks outpacing awareness, yeah. Which is why even some level of education is really, really important.

SPEAKER_05 29:57

Brilliant, really good points. And then just to end on a positive, what gives you hope? Is there something out there, maybe a new development or something that kind of goes you you think, oh, okay, maybe it's even more parents are taking their kids out these days. Anything like that. Is there anything that gives you hope?

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Well, summer's around the corner, so let's hope parents out more. Yes. I think there's there's growing public awareness, more people have been hit by scams, and more stories are being shared. I think that's really important, and that's encouraging better conversations and families. It's not the taboo subject, it was uh even within the last five years. Uh so I think that's really important. Platforms, social media platforms, and all other online platforms, they've been um getting a lot of heat from governments and support groups, and uh we've seen an improvement in reporting tools as well, uh, including their own education and uh uh safety checkups that you can do for your profiles uh on particularly social media. Uh education in schools is catching up, which is great. And as I've already mentioned, you know, people are talking about this more openly now. You know, for for a mental health matter show, we're talking about cyber. You know, five years ago, would we think that we have thought that in a mental health show we'd be talking about cybersecurity? Where is the connection? And yet there is a profound connection.

SPEAKER_05 31:26

Yes, yes, and thank you, Danny. That's been a really great conversation, as always. Where can we learn more about you? Where can we find you? And so on.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Uh, we can be found on our website, uh cyber-fortified.com, and you'll find our contact details there. Um, as always, we're still there. We have been for a while.

SPEAKER_05 31:44

I know, I know. We should keep including it in our show notes. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Danny. It's been a real pleasure. We will head over to Test the Trend. Well, on today's Test the Trend is where we give you a weekly challenge. Now, I was gonna talk about um if you see a suspicious link, then pause and think about it and do all the things that Danny said, but he's already said that. So I'm gonna challenge you to do something else instead, and that is get offline. Get offline.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

I love that.

SPEAKER_05 32:16

Yeah, and I know it feels scary because so much of our life is online, but maybe leave your phone at home if you're going on a very short walk or something like that. I mean, I know that's a risky thing to say because I know if something happens, you want to have your phone on you. But I know I leave my phone at home when I walk the dog. It's a short 15-minute walk, and generally there's enough people there, so if anything were to happen, I wouldn't be able to get help or whatever. Yeah. But that is when I absolutely don't have my phone and I love it.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_05 32:44

And the reason I say that is because I love it when I'm on a plane as well.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

Because no one can contact you.

SPEAKER_05 32:50

Yeah, even if I want to, I can't. So what are you gonna do to get offline, dude, this week?

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Do you know? As I was listening to Danny talking, um, and you as well, because you made a really good point about that. Um, I'm just not gonna go on Facebook and scroll. Uh because it's A, it's a waste of time, and B, it opens you up to all sorts of things, but but C, it's just how nice is it to look at the sky and and not your phone. And I'm not somebody that spends hours on my phone, I don't, but I just think, why do I do it ever?

SPEAKER_05 33:22

And on that note, just something you won't know, but Jude has opened a cafe in our studio. And one of the things that I've come to realise, and it's silly, I know, because we do a TV show as well, but there's too much content and not enough connection out there. And in Jude's launch, it was so lovely to talk to people. We had no phones, we were actually having face-to-face conversations, and we need more of that. So if you find the time to go to a local coffee shop or something like that, go and have a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Right, my challenge to you.

SPEAKER_05 34:02

Well, we've reached the end of the show, and as always, Daniel gives us a lot to think about. But I know whilst he was talking, one of the key things, and I know I would get on a bit of a soapbox about it, I think we've created this world. We have become so I whether it's selfish or egocentric, and I know when when my dad was alive, I would take every Tuesday off, and then when he his health deteriorated, I'd take Tuesday and Thursday off, or it might be Tuesday and Saturday off, I would take two days to go and see him and spend time with him, take him out for lunch and that sort of thing. And I genuinely think we've created the loneliness. We've created the, well, I'm too busy on my phone, so you go and busy yourself doing something else. And you can see when families do not do that, their kids are happy.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

Yes, and and conversely, you can see when they do do that. I've and I'm sure you, and I'm sure so many people must have seen children desperate for the attention of their parent who are on a phone or a a um tablet or something, and it it's heartbreaking because all the child sees is the top of their parents' heads, that's all they see, and actually, um I've seen it in my dogs. I know that sounds weird. My dog, did you all just fluid?

SPEAKER_04 35:21

I looked up from my phone and my dog was Yes, and my dog does the same.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

He he absolutely hates the phone, he hates it. Yeah, and if he's if he wants to do something, which he generally wants to do something, um, and say I'm on my phone, I don't know, we're posting something or whatever, he absolutely hates it and he has that exact look. He's got an expression. Yeah, he does.

SPEAKER_05 35:45

It is a look, and it was a definite judgmental. But if our dogs can do that, well, it was a book that I think it was smartphones, dumb parents, actually. Again, it was this book. That um what happens is when that child is looking at the parent looking at their phone, that child is now thinking, I want one of those. They're clearly so interesting that the person I love the most is very, very interested in this. And when I get one, yeah, that's what I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 36:13

So whilst it's important to stay safe online, whilst it's important to be aware of messages, and and Danny's point about verification, it reminded me of something else. I've literally seen this um filling in a death certificate. Oh is this for you or for someone else? I'd love it if this for someone else. Yes, for me. It's for me. This death certificate is for me. What the actual that's verification for you.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

I mean, yeah, that's that's belt and braces, I think.

SPEAKER_05 36:49

That's what it's like, and if that's what robots can do to us, we need to be sitting there and saying, let's verify this.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

Yeah, absolutely. It actually reminds me of something that happened yesterday. Simon, he just my husband he called out and he said, Oh, um, you've got to pay your Disney Plus subscription. And I said, But I I do pay it as direct debit every month, it's fine. He said, Oh no, no, Sky, who are TV things with. Sky said, Um, you haven't paid your Disney Plus, you have to pay it, otherwise it's cancelled. And I said, That's a scam. Yeah, and he hadn't even thought of that. So it's it anyone can be taken in, absolutely anyone. Yes, and that's and that's really frightening.

SPEAKER_05 37:31

It is frightening, it is frightening, and they don't just target individuals, it's not personal, it's literally let's throw this out there, see what happens.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

It's spray paint, isn't it? It is it is sticks.

SPEAKER_05 37:42

On that note, stay safe, yeah, get outside, yeah, get offline and have a healthy week. Yeah.