CASEBOOK: Kink!

A fab opportunity to listen to our award-winning episode in the Webisode competition run by WRPN… on the subject of “KINK”.  Sex Therapist Madina Demirbas unpacks not just what we really mean by BDSM – but also the rules, and aftercare, which are paramount to the experience!

Our CASEBOOK podcasts are previous recordings on a theme or topic – for this month we will be speaking with Sex Therapist and TEDx speaker Madina Demirbas.

About the Show

Each Thursday at 4pm, we broadcast on LinkedIn and YouTube, with the podcast released on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more. 

Then every Friday at 8am, you’ll also receive a bonus podcast episode (like this one) - a carefully selected recent conversation offering practical insight and timeless support.

Wherever you listen, you’re invited to pause, reflect, and reconnect: 

PODCAST: https://mentalhealthmatters.buzzsprout.com

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5dbYRwciNQ3c2hZwpsfxnNIvpijH4S2b 

Today's show is hosted by

Dr Audrey Tang www.draudreyt.com  @draudreyt

Judith Crosier https://www.facebook.com/p/Judith-Crosier-Presenter-61556005102240/

Guest Expert

Madina Demirbas

https://www.madinademirbash.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:03

Good evening and welcome to Mental Health Matters After Hours with me, Dr. Audrey Tang. Today's show is a little bit different, a little bit spicier. You can see we've got a slightly different background, and we will have a slightly different set in our studio as well. We are welcoming sex therapist Medina Demebra to talk about sexual fetishes. Let's head over to the main studio. Well, we've got Medina back for another night show, which we love. So welcome to Mental Health Matters Office. Uh no, that's the wrong show. Uh welcome to Mental Health Matters After Hours. Um, Medina, I'm gonna jump straight in. What would you class as a sexual fetish?

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Before we jump in, I would like to thank you again for inviting me and for talking about the subjects which are so under talked, and the more we have healthy conversations about fetish, about sexual fantasies, whatever, today we're gonna discuss about the healthier relationships people will have, I believe.

SPEAKER_07 1:02

Yes, because we're not hiding all of this.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Yeah, yeah, because in the UK and and in most parts of the world, it's still a topic which is full of shame and guilt and misunderstanding and confusion and so on.

SPEAKER_07 1:14

Yeah. So yeah, uh, can we jump in? Yeah, now we can with those fetishes. What what would you incl include in a fetish?

SPEAKER_02 1:25

So a fetish would be something that is persistent, which is sexual it's when a person is persistently sexually interested in an object, in a body part, or in a situation which is not necessarily seen as sexual. So it can be leather, a foot, or a certain scenario, power play, and so on. Wow. And it's almost sort of obsessively, maybe can't get aroused without Yeah, that's that's that's the thing, because for some people it is essential. Right. And that we will discuss later. That's when it can be problematic, not necessarily. Uh and for some people it's just uh an addition to an already, you know, to some kind of an exit exciting addition.

SPEAKER_07 2:10

Okay, so I think this maybe relates to the exciting addition, but but I suppose it can also be essential. Um sex play. So things like BDSM or swinging or other forms of I guess sexual enhancements in addition to your your um day-to-day partner, as it were. Uh uh, what else might we see and how common is that to to desire?

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Well, first the BDSM, let's break it down one bitch. Uh, dominance, submissiveness, and uh masochism, right? So this is the community, the the type of is the practice that involves a lot of play, uh, that involves spanking and rather what we would call kink activities. Uh it used to be a very isolated sort of suburban gay activity in the 1980s and 90s, and now we see a growing number of heterosexual couples engaging in it and even forming communities and and actually yeah, uh growing in the UK as well. So uh 50% of adults admit that they either have engaged or thought about engaging into BDSM um activities. Uh role play is also part of the kink, yes, falls under the row of of kink, and then we have swinging, which is part of consensual non-monogamy, which is also growing in the UK.

SPEAKER_07 3:44

You see, is it is is it growing, or do you think awareness of it is growing, or is it a bit of both? Now we're more aware of it, we know where to go to do it.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Exactly, exactly. Even in conservative places, what what you would consider conservative places in the UK, they would actually have quite open communities and meetings which are not necessarily turning into some kind of parties where people are discussing, sharing ideas and writing, especially online, you would see that a lot. Wow. That's I mean, in a way, that's not a bad thing. No, um 50% higher than I thought. Yeah, that is higher than I think. Yes, yes, and uh it's not a bad thing as long as there's a consent and we will talk about it because consent is can be very tricky. Um what exactly do you consent to? And then I will also talk about uh to talk about specific cases with police involvement and how certain groups get um overcriminalized because of who they are, not because they engage in BDSM activity. We'll talk about it later.

SPEAKER_07 4:43

That's important to recognize as well, because the activity itself is probably not a well, the activity itself is not a criminal activity if you have consent.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Yeah, and then that's a really big question. Uh whether consent, because there there was this case where the they concluded that consent is not necessarily uh a ground for whatever for the outcome.

SPEAKER_08 5:07

So that was my question, actually. Is uh you know, some some subjects are quite taboo, but if there's mutual consent, we would perceive that to be okay. But is that not always okay then if there's mutual consent?

SPEAKER_02 5:19

It depends on what the outcome was because sometimes it can be death as well, and people should be aware of that. Yes, uh there are some practices in BDSM, especially including the um alteration of your breathing that can be uh that you need to get training for that. And uh the BDSM community is very clear about it. Don't do it unless you really, really know what's happening because it's um easy to lose your partner, and there were cases sadly in the UK very controversial ones.

SPEAKER_08 5:50

I was watching a crime drama um recently, I think it was American, and they said that actually that's uh illegal to indulge in that practice.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

It's it's tricky, you see, in in the UK legal system as well. What is harm, even if it's a consensual harm, there is always um there are always cases when it goes beyond the consented harm, and then even if the person says I was alright, then should the government, you know, it's very controversial, very tricky. Um, should the government actually step in for you because they think that you don't know what you're doing, what you're agreeing to?

SPEAKER_08 6:25

Yeah, it's a huge subject, isn't it? Yes. So that yeah, this links into this next question. Then when does a a fetish or a or a type of sexual behavior become problematic?

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Well, first when it's non-consensual, like we discussed earlier. Uh especially for someone who is doing it for the first time, you want to talk really through all the details. Before you want to be extremely slow during the process and then after. Uh, the aftercare is important, we will talk about it as well. But uh so it can be problematic if it's non-conceptual, consensual. Uh, secondly, if it interferes with your daily activities and if it interferes with your relationship, if it replaces the relationship.

SPEAKER_07 7:08

Oh gosh, there's there, there's a lot to talk about. We're keeping Medina and we'll be back just after this.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

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SPEAKER_00 7:55

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SPEAKER_07 8:15

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters After Hours. We are talking actually very seriously about fetishes, BDSM, consent and what that means, whether you can even consent to certain acts.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Um let's whether you're the the biggest one of the biggest also question is whether there's a link between certain type of disorder and uh you know being open to consent to BDSM and the research doesn't show any link whatsoever. So any sort of normal people do get engaged. It's not as if you are um if you're in, you know, if you're trying or thinking about it, it doesn't mean that you're a wrong person or there is some kind of trauma that you went through. It could be just that you're interested.

SPEAKER_07 9:00

You find it sexually arousing, you know that yeah, yeah, and that's a really good point to make actually. Um porn then. So that kind of brings me on to this. Is porn considered a fetish? Because there's a lot of research which says, of course, pornography is objectifying, it's unhealthy, it's it's all of those things. And yet, erotica, when you put it that way, it can be stimulating, it can be especially for women. So uh this is another very grey area. What what would you say about porn?

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Porn is not necessarily a fetish, it's rather a medium. We call it a medium. However, porn can uh certain genres in porn can can be around the fetish. So if you find yourself watching it, then that you know that means you have some kind of fetishistic interest, which 30% of people do. Uh not that they watch the porn, but they have the fetishistic interest. Yeah. Uh the problem with porn is the volume and the amount uh which sets unrealistic expectations, dissatisfaction in real life, and it uh sometimes replaces the relationship as well for people because it keeps them sort of a quote unquote safe space. But when it comes to erotica, which is more narrative produced, uh there are at least some emotions in there. Uh that could be actually stimulating for women and for men as well. Um and one uh I I said it in previous shows, one of the good books that I would recommend if you're into erotic, if you're into trying to understand your fantasies and so on, is uh called Want by Gilene Anderson. It's very easy to read, it's fun uh to explore, to see what other women are fantasizing about, and a little bit of analysis there as well.

SPEAKER_07 10:52

Yeah, and since the last show I have actually downloaded that on Kindle. I have looked, it's a really great book, and it is it's people's self-reflections on their fantasies as well. And I think that really it's kind of it makes you kind of go, oh no, I'm not weird or oh no, not at all. It's a really nice it is a really nice book. Um, this kind of links though to my next question. Um, because you very rightly said if you are stimulated by say uh bondage or something like that, you're not weird. That's that's a really important um thing to say there.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

At least there is no research that would support it.

SPEAKER_07 11:31

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Yeah, your your friends can say you're weird, your partner can say you're weird, but there is no research to that.

SPEAKER_07 11:39

But what if there is that need to have that external stimuli all the time because you you you just cannot enjoy sex otherwise?

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Uh that's one of the common requests that uh inquiries that I have in my practice as a sex therapist, because when you um and and it happens, it happens more often than we would like it to, that you there's something happens within you that you just can get aroused only this way. And instead of and a lot of people just shame themselves of why I cannot just do it other than love or whatever. And instead of shaming, I always invite people to sort of try to understand what's behind what's the need behind this because every single fetish, every single fantasy was born from somewhere. Uh it has a history, and I'm really curious about this history. It's not that immediately, oh now I understand, and I don't know. And we're not trying, another thing is that we're not trying to get rid of this fetish, we're just trying to widen the options a bit more to see because once you understand what's the need, what's the psychological need behind this fetish, then you can see what are other ways you can satisfy this need without necessarily involving this particular fetish, maybe a different one, but at least you know, because it can be it's not a problem if it's okay for you, and you know, you found your way, you it which gets you good, but sometimes it can be very tiring for partners. Mostly it's partners who come to me and say, like, we've gotta solve this because I cannot play uh up to this all the time, every single time. Like I want you know this or that, but my partner would refuse.

SPEAKER_07 13:19

That's really interesting. So I'm just I know I know you've got um a question in there, but but it's like I watched Baby Girl, which is the Nicole Kidman um erotic film. Now, I I didn't think it was as erotic as it as it made out to be. But but the point there was this very high-powered woman, and it just resonates with what you're saying, very, very high-powered woman, and what she really wanted was to be dominated, really sexually dominated. And when she finally could voice that to her husband, it actually improved their relationship.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Ideally, I mean like Hollywood style, then it just happened. You have an affair, you come to your husband, oh actually, this is what I want, and then they send this uh apprentice, whatever, to Japan, and now it is also. That's the actual fantasy. Yeah, that is, yeah. But sometimes I think there is that there is a lot of people. We know in research that people in power usually they would prefer uh to be submissive in BDSM practices. It sort of unloads all the thinking and the decisions that they make. Also, we know from research that it all that uh people with ADHD would uh almost benefit from BDSM practices as well. They report to finally have the time when they don't have to make decisions, they don't have to plan in the submissive role, when that's finally done for them and they're truly enjoying it. It's like uh they they report, uh I I've read some qualitative studies, they report that this is the first time in my life when I feel so free, I don't have to care, I don't have to think, I can just you know relax into it. So that's really interesting, isn't it? That really is, yeah. Yeah, gosh. Obviously, but then uh you know, with all this exciting part, there's also again I want to remind about the consent and the aftercare that uh is essential to any practice, no matter how big or small. What did you pull it the aftercare? So the aftercare, it's also the term that I've learned just recently. It's how would because the uh experience is so intense, it can be not just physically intense but emotionally as well. For some people, the bondage. Uh you would see people cry, laugh, not you know, there are all kinds of things. Yes, so you um unlike you know the usual sexual practice, like, oh we had a good time, let's just turn over the back. Some people prefer that and it's fine, but after such an intense journey, people need to be taken care of, and you you have to discuss this. Either it's a cup of tea or just a hug or a bathtub, or some people interestingly, would prefer calling their friend and just talking to them uh through you know through whatever that is, but you cannot just leave this person laying down there and just digesting whatever it happened, no matter if it's the first, second, third time. Yeah, there's always this is the part that has to be spoken about in advance. Wow, yeah, so you kind of plan what you're gonna do in advance. Yeah, yeah, definitely. It kind of takes away the excitement. Oh, let's keep it a surprise. Don't keep it to you know, it's this is not the place. Um even if your experience, there's still a range how far you can go and how far um your partner can go.

SPEAKER_08 16:41

Yes, because ultimately what you're doing is to get a real um extreme uh emotion or extreme feeling. So you've got to do something with that extreme kind of thing, haven't you?

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Yeah, yeah, you've got to process it and and dealing it, even if the person says, I can do it alone, okay, but just offer um you can still offer tea, coffee. Yeah, coffee would not be a good idea because it would stimulate you. But perhaps some tea, bathtub, you know, some music, people, yeah, a blanket over is a common uh aftercare practice.

SPEAKER_07 17:13

It's really important, really important information.

SPEAKER_08 17:15

Yeah, really good advice. So is um fantasizing, is that is that ever a problem?

SPEAKER_07 17:23

Like role play and things like that as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Yeah, yeah, uh I love fantasies. I love working with fantasies because they usually offer when when you dig it down deeper, you see that they offer the problem that the person has and the solution to it. Sure. So uh classical example, uh let's say uh a client comes in, like, I have this persistent fantasy about gangbang, for example, and you would say like oh, you know, instead of like why why do you want this? You know, this is wrong and everything, but just trying to understand what's in there for you. So, what how do you how do you think in your fantasy, how does it make you feel? And she would go, Oh, I just don't have to take care about anybody you know, and this because this is what it's so it shows that there is a problem that a woman or a man takes too much care of everybody else around, and they just want to have a space where they don't have to do it, where things are done for them, and you know, it just happens to be sexualized in this context, but at the end of the day, it's just about just breathing out, so um, you know, and it's always up to client to go for it or not, but understanding what's so in this fantasy there is a problem and there is a solution. So, you know, there you go. There's several brilliant uh partners involved, and you know, um and you don't need to do yes, you don't need to do anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 18:46

Yeah, so you hit gangbang, you hit you measure the garbage. Yeah, yeah, but it's not about that, it's about taking a.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

No, no, that's the beauty of sexual fantasies that they they they have, they are emotional in their nature. When uh sometimes it's intertwined and you have to dig really deep to understand yeah, but at the at the base of them, they they're always about some kind of really cute little knee, like bunny need underneath. It just happens to be sexualized uh just because we want to be adults, you know, to look like we've got it all together, but uh all of us have this some kind of childhood needs that were not met, and it's okay. And sometimes um even fantasizing can be healing or uh or perhaps even you know doing it in real life can be a healing experience as well in itself. However, if uh the fantasy becomes persistent and the only way again for you to get you know aroused and everything, then again we would see why why is this fantasy what's in there? You know, you would discuss it with your partner, with yourself, with your sex therapist, uh, not with your neighbor, maybe. What if it's about the neighbor? It's about the neighboring, yeah. It definitely gives proximity theory, you know, the more you see other people you're more attracted to.

SPEAKER_07 20:08

But gosh, yeah, no, that's that but that's a really helpful thing to know, actually. Because rather than shaming ourselves if we have a fantasy, it is about sitting there and sort of asking, why? What what what is that saying? What is that actually trying to tell me that I need?

SPEAKER_02 20:23

It can be it can be one chat GPT question away, really. Yes, true, really. You can ask this is the fantasy that I have persistently, I'm this many years old, this is my life, da-da-da-da. And then it can show you, it could signify this and that and that. If you want to explore further, you go to sex therapist and so on, but it doesn't always you know have to take like a huge step to understand yourself. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_08 20:49

And so, what if um one partner wants to experiment and the other one doesn't? How would you advise handling that situation?

SPEAKER_02 20:57

It usually happens with the discrepancy. You know, in the beginning we tend to play along and we agree to things that we normally don't agree with, and it looks like oh, we're always on the same page, and then with the time we understand. Actually, I uh said yes to something I didn't necessarily want and I don't want to say again. And the other partner but but you liked it. Well, actually, I didn't.

SPEAKER_06 21:20

And then that's the whole trust thing in there. Oh gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

So uh what I I uh always advise is as much as you can to to rather have a disrespectful conversation about it rather than passive aggressive or pushing out or shaming into not following your desire. And sometimes the truth is that your partner will just not want it for whatever reason, not because of you. Uh it could be like all kinds of things we know that parenthood, midlife crisis, hormonal changes, antidepressants they all affect our liberty and our desire to engage in some spicy activities.

SPEAKER_07 21:58

And then that just takes Back to the thing that you said earlier about how maybe you were engaging in roleplay and now your partner's just I don't want to do that roleplay again. You know, I can't play the pipe anyway.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

I mean that's a conversation that has to be had as well, doesn't it? Um because we're still learning to to talk about it in a nice healthy way, it's not always easy. You know, that's what we um were trained during sex therapy training, like to discuss to talk how does the exit how does the arousal feel in your but it was so awkward, you cannot imagine. I would I would just rather die there than to speak it out, you know, because there's even though I thought you know, I'm I'm more or less what do you call sex positive, and I can discuss it and so on, but uh actually naming things and talking about it in it can be very tricky. So but after all, but but we had to do it so that we can, you know, where we're comfortable with our uh clients. But for many people, I can see it's still a big, big taboo, a lot of shame, um, a lot of guilt, and so on and so forth. So maybe writing, like the first step through writing, and again you have your chat GPT, how should I, you know, approach which kind of words should I use? Um it's not about manipulation for God's sake. It's about really gently approaching because the more you're gonna poke and push your partner, the the you know, the more it's gonna change the dynamic in a negative way, unfortunately. Oh my god. I wish that just by shouting and shaming things would work, you know, but then I wouldn't have a job.

SPEAKER_07 23:41

Shouting and shaming is the way we often do it. That's the that's the problem.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

And of course, that is gonna push something right back into this. It does exactly the opposite. Nobody was like, you know, oh yeah, thank you for shouting. Now let's have the sex of our lives.

SPEAKER_07 23:57

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um, we're keeping Medina and we'll be back just after this. A world without the arts is one without confidence, creativity, and community, and yet funding has been reduced every year. Arts programs have been shown to benefit social inclusion and well-being, particularly for marginalized groups, with projects fostering a sense of belonging, cultivating mutual understanding, and breaking down social barriers and isolation. Participation in arts programs can help boost confidence and open doors to opportunities that may otherwise be inaccessible. Click Arts Foundation offers grants up to£2,000 for grassroots arts projects twice a year, with our community arts experience trustees meticulously scoring each project on impact and sustainability. To date, we have supported craft and visual arts projects, dance, drumming for well-being, and preservation of heritage and culture. If you share our passion not just for maintaining the arts themselves, but contributing to the many benefits it can bring, please consider making a donation to Click Arts Foundation registered charity. Welcome back to Mental Health Matters After Hours. We are talking about sexual fetishes, we're talking about consent, we're talking about I guess um sex that isn't what we conventionally just see as sex when we talk about sex in general. So, but these are conversations that do have to be had because a lot of what you said, Medina, we don't talk about, we don't even talk about with our friends. No. And I think we we need to do that. And and actually today's show, we have a studio audience, which means that we are extending that conversation. And we do have a a question.

SPEAKER_05 25:40

This is quite a deep question, um, and quite personal, um, about childhood sex abuse and uh how sometimes fat issues can grow from that. I just wondered what you can share or what if uh if there's more information about that.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yeah, and specifically about sexual abuse, it's interesting how our uh um brain tries to develop a mechanism to cope with it and to heal from it. And sometimes fetish and um or fantasy, even fantasy about a rape can be sexually stimulating. Somebody would say, Why is that you know something that traumatized a person so deeply? Why would you even what's wrong with me? type of question. But the thing is that in your fantasy, usually you are in charge of the fantasy, even though if it's happening to you, you are deciding. And in a way, getting back your agency, which was lost in this experience, a traumatic experience. So what I would say is that it's it can be very tricky, it doesn't work for everybody, but I know persons I I know cases from my um practice when this type when this type of fantasy and then perhaps even role play was actually healing for the person. It's the psyche's way of um dealing with it and and not just overcome it, but actually feeling empowered. And it's not an uncommon uh fantasy, and in this book as well, want uh by Jillian Anderson, this is discussed with great care, and you would see that women would uh think that this is something absolutely wrong. Like you shouldn't even think about it, but many women find it empowering.

SPEAKER_05 27:30

Thank you. Um like I say, it's a personal thing for me, and it did empower me. Um it was a fantasy I used to have, and it did empower me. So thanks for sharing that.

SPEAKER_07 27:40

Thank you, thank you. Uh that is really important actually, because what you say about how fantasy is used in so many ways, um, this is underpinning, say, um, NLP, where you go back and revisit uh a traumatic time and then you replace that memory with something else. And what you're talking about there is using fantasy to, as you say, give back the agency so you can almost rewrite that lack of power. And I'm that that's very healing. It's yeah. And this is why we have to talk about this because I think we wouldn't have to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

But I want to underline it doesn't necessarily work for everybody, it can be re-traumatizing. Yes, uh, it can be tricky, it depends on so many factors on how whether your partner is involved or not involved, and how it's involved, where you do whether you discuss it, whether aftercare happened, and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_07 28:33

That aftercare point is just I think you know, we need we need to keep just emphasizing aftercare.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

I believe in s any sexual activity there should be aftercare. Uh at least some form, some agreement. Because yeah, um it, you know, uh it's one of the stages which sets you up for the next sexual act, right? So not necessarily like discussing what did you like and what you didn't like and no analysis. No analysis. Yeah, but actually like experiencing this connection that happened or a lack of connection, which happens as well together. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_07 29:12

Okay, so what about when somebody has Okay, I don't like this because it's lost the sex drive, you know, that that that sort of thing. Um is there more to work through? But you know, could it be things that we've got to look at what life's doing to you right now, what your hormones, what's your age, all of those aspects, or is it just oh spice things up a bit and you'll get it back? You know, is it is it quite as mechanical as that?

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Uh I wish. Uh I wish it would be spicing up can help. It doesn't solve the problems, it can uh, you know, it can it can enhance if both people are interested. The thing is that I always, even though I'm a sex therapist, I said it in previous shows, I always look at the broader picture of life of a couple, the trust, the communication, uh, the different dynamic, what's happening personally for each partner that they might not be aware because what we know from chronic stress is that once when you're in it, you don't necessarily recognize it. It becomes your daily routine. We talked about uh sandwich carers who you know become automatic at taking care of elderly uh relatives and their kids, and they're just in this constant shift, and you know, there's not very much space left for the understanding how tired they actually are. So I yes, you can always try uh not putting too much bets on you know, spicing up uh and on in general on sex life. I think that's because sex life is just one of the languages that you can communicate. Yes, yeah, if it becomes the only language, yes, then that's problematic, uh that's problematic. But however, you know, there are all kinds of couples. We know they can work around it, but it will be just harder.

SPEAKER_07 31:01

I think that that does lead on very nicely to my next question because when I guess in my very limited experience of sex, of the common questions I hear from friends and things like this, you're either having it or you're not, kind of thing. That's and that's it, that's the problem. But there's so much, there's so much that goes into there's so many other things that you could be talking about. Do you have um sort of common things that couples present with at all in your in your practice?

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Um the the common situation which uh I recently get is that people, you know, they they generally don't understand we were so attracted to each other in the beginning. It was the sex was so great and so on and so forth. What happened? We we didn't change that much. It's been just five years. Or it's been just you know, just as little as three years, and it's gone, and where is it gone and what's wrong with us? And what I have to remind is that it's a normal, it's absolutely normal tendency for passion to go away. Now, if it happened automatically in the beginning of a relationship, now you need to put a different effort, like a date perhaps, or uh even bringing back the seduction part. Because some people can take it as an offense. What again? I have to seduce her well, you know. Yes, and uh it will require effort, which might pay off in the end and might not. It's really, you know, it's it's interesting how people just expect it to happen by by itself just because they love each other and just because they once had great sex a long time ago or before kids or something like that.

SPEAKER_07 32:41

Yeah, it's it's the effort, I think, because I think we don't realize, you know, at the start of a relationship, you are putting effort in, but because your focus is that relationship, it doesn't feel like effort, it feels like I'm just going out to see so and so, and and it's very different. Whereas once you're in that relationship and you're stable, and so you've got that fulfillment and you've got all of those lovely, lovely aspects, but then you build in other things around your life.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

That's what that's uh one of the things that shocked me when I was studying the couple therapy and sex therapy, is that I always genuinely believe that intimacy brings the great sex. Yes, to a certain point, but intimacy can kill sexual life just as much. So these two forces they need to be fed fed, sort of like in in a in different way. For intimacy, you need predictability, you need to trust, uh, you need uh friendship, you need to be close, whereas for desire to happen, you need to keep the distance, you need to give each other space, you need to be unpredictable, right? So all of these things they kind of cancel each other. At some point, they do intertwine. You cannot have just you know desire or just intimacy to work. For some people, they need more intimacy for the sexual desire to work, but they are very different, they don't necessarily feed each other up. Yes, so you have to, it's like left foot and right foot, you have to balance both of them and take care of two of this.

SPEAKER_07 34:07

That's so true, isn't it? Because you're right about predictability and trust, and you know, and immediately you go, that's not very sexy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh care. Care is one big turn-off for you know for friendship. That's exactly what you do. I care about your feelings, I'm selfless, you're the priority where this we don't see somebody as sexy when we're taking care of them, yes, and when uh they are too much caring for us. So it has to be selfish bastard that we that we are attracted to. Trustworthy and trustworthy and listening and you know, all of that.

SPEAKER_08 34:45

So that's where fantasy is becoming. You know, you've got a lovely caring husband, but you fantasize about him being this, as you said.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um abusive and or dominant or something like that. This is something that uh you would you would uh read a lot in this want book as well. Like I love my husband, but the problem he's too much loving. I want somebody less loving to be sexually attracted to him, and this is normal, and this is something that you discuss either through play or through certain or sometimes you just acknowledging it to yourself brings a lot of ease. It's true. That's really true.

SPEAKER_08 35:22

Oh my goodness. I know, it's it's multi-layered. So, how do you help a couple who are uncomfortable discussing sex? Sorry? How do you help a couple? What do you say to a couple who might be uncomfortable discussing?

SPEAKER_07 35:34

Yeah, because that can be awkward, because you're there with me. It's very awkward. Your husband or wife, and you know, you're having to talk about quite very personal stuff.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Yeah. Yeah. First thing I always say is take your time, take your space. Just because I'm a sex therapist doesn't mean you have to pour it all on me all at once. You're welcome to, but you really don't have to. I respect any pace that people choose. And I always double check if the partner is comfortable with uh the other partner sharing this information because it's very sensitive. There's a lot of shame and there's a lot of embarrassment, and and it can really cloud up the whole therapy session if I'm you know not taking it slowly enough. So really inviting them into the safe sometimes space. Sometimes it takes up to like five sessions, even though they come with a you know with an inquiry about the sex issue, they would still need at least five sessions to get comfortable. Um you know, just just being a sex therapist doesn't make me trustworthy right away.

SPEAKER_07 36:36

Yeah, of course, and then it will probably maybe five more sessions to get to the real issue.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 36:42

You know, to get comfortable talking about it in the first place, and then to to actually explore, yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Yeah. So uh there would always be somebody usually in the couple that would talk more, and the other would be like just listening, or they would talk for them instead, and this is what I'm also trying to observe and reflect. This is what I see, is this how it happens? And you know, sometimes I would ask people because people can get stiff even around the subject, they would just sit there physically, but their mind is somewhere else completely. And I respect that. There's one thing that I definitely desire I respect. I'm asking and checking up on them. Would you like to write it perhaps? Would you like to show it in uh through some mimics or something? You don't have to necessarily talk because especially uh for men, and we know it. Uh for men it's harder to speak out about their emotions and they how they feel in the morning, in the afternoon. I don't want to generalize, but we know from uh from uh the research and from um men uh division of men psychology in in BPS that's a whole different issue. How therapy is not always suitable for for man. Yeah. This format of sitting in one room doing nothing and just discussing feelings can feel overwhelming.

SPEAKER_07 38:00

And very odd, very alien to you.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm here, and then they would openly sometimes say, I'm here because she bro, I don't want to be here. Yeah, I I'm here because I want her, but I don't want to be here.

SPEAKER_07 38:11

And then actually, in so many ways, the effort that a man might have taken or the partner who didn't want to go has taken to turn up in the first place is probably all the effort you're gonna get for that session.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Yeah, exactly. There is always one who didn't want to come. Sometimes they make it very obvious. Uh sometimes you're you know like this person was dragged in. And and and again, my job is not to like find who's the guilty one and so on, who is the problem here, but I'm I'm just really trying to exp explore the space between them and what's the pattern. Uh so this is probably what helps in my work because I'm you know, my underneath belief is that there's no no one person is a problem. So they have the problematic pattern, and my job is to find this pattern and to reflect it to them.

SPEAKER_08 39:01

So that's why um, and I say as well to them that I you know I'm not here to judge or to so uh kind of leading on from that then, um some people might find it hard to to to talk together. Um you've mentioned the book by Julian Anderson. Are there any other books that you could recommend to to help couples to work out their own problems or who are going into therapy?

SPEAKER_02 39:30

I think the the classic one is the secret garden. Something yeah that uh I've heard of that one. Yeah, uh that uh I would recommend. Uh that I personally found when I was six years old, this is how I became sex therapist, I guess. But when I was six years old, I found the book uh Joy of Sex. I think that affected me really because it like oh it actually can be very joyful, and like people, the the pictures that were there, they were like smiling, you know, against all the odds and all the programming that is dirty, it's bad. I'm like, but this book says something else. This was my first time ever learning about sex through this book.

SPEAKER_07 40:08

That's really lovely, actually. And actually, it shows that it is really important to understand where someone's upbringing is coming to their beliefs.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Yeah, oh yeah, it's dirty, it's wrong, it's you know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, in in in most of cultures, even even here in the UK, in the Western cultures, um, you know, you would get this sort of this upbringing that is dirty, it's wrong. Uh, you should be afraid of getting pregnant. You know, gosh, that's the one, yeah. Like uh there are all kinds of mechanisms to to scare people off from sex, and then people are actually doing it and ending up being pregnant and so on, because you know, there are there are so many reasons to that. Obviously, I don't want to just narrow it down, but uh but then is there's there was always this question in my mind ever since I was a kid if this is so bad, why is everybody doing it? Because people in the book are smiling. It's supposed to be something bad, but then you know it's that's a good point.

SPEAKER_06 41:10

Maybe that's the recommendation for schools, you know. Don't have the PSA she let's just get them all the copy of the transacts.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

And and definitely um discuss it, you know, it's just just by seeing it is overwhelming. But uh my mum sat me down, she couldn't explain the best she could. But yeah, I had an an an adult um to talk to. Well a lovely introduction with your your mom kind of being so she she hated, she absolutely hated doing it, she just had to. Uh you would see that she would rather not to, but it's I I to this day I appreciate that because of you and the sex therapist.

SPEAKER_07 41:48

Very successful sex therapist as well. So no, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

Yeah, gosh. And on that note, where can we find out more about what you do? Uh so you can just Google Medina Sex Therapist, M-A-D-I-N-A, and you would get to my website, to the social media platforms, and I'd be happy to get your messages and um to reply to any feedback that you have or inquiries.

SPEAKER_07 42:12

Amazing. Um, we're keeping Medina for her top tips and we shall go over to Test the Trend. On today's Test the Trend, we're going to pull out something that Medina has said on a previous show. And that is sometimes it's a case of booking in time for sex. Whether that's a date night, a romantic getaway, a time and a place where you won't be interrupted or troubled by anyone else, and you make an effort to focus on each other. So this week, focus on finding time for your loved one. It doesn't need to lead to sex, but it is important that we do spend quality time when our focus is on our partner, not on all the other things that we've got going on for us. So that's my challenge to you this week. Book time for each other. We get good at what we practice. So if that works, next time you might find even more time to spend together. Well, we've reached the last part of the show. Medina, again, you've just really opened our eyes, broadened our minds, and thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_07 43:25

Um it was, I mean, we love this bit because this is a bit where we reflect on on what you've said and all the things that we've taken away. And there's so much in today's show.

SPEAKER_08 43:36

We covered a lot, didn't we? Yeah, you've covered a lot.

SPEAKER_07 43:39

Yeah, definitely. And I think the thing for me is is fantasies can be very healing. They're not always, and I absolutely understand that, but in so many cases, it's not anything to be shame uh shamed over. You don't need to feel ashamed because there is so much shame tied up with sex, and I think being able to talk openly. And being able to express those questions without feeling a sense of shame, that's that's at least a good start. So, you know, thank you for the work that you do. That's probably what I've taken away the most.

SPEAKER_08 44:11

Definitely. And I think I my sort of big takeaway is the art, the art you mentioned aftercare a few times, but the care kind of at the beginning and throughout and at the end as well, you know, just make making sure that person's okay. That's kind of what really came out to me.

SPEAKER_07 44:31

Yeah. I think that's and that's something that we don't think about, and I suppose you think about it less the longer you've been in a relationship because you get into habits as well. Yes. And that's yeah, and it's something that can create intimacy. And that reminds me of the other thing that you said that desire versus intimacy, it has to intertwine for I think for really successful sort of long-term sex life. But you're absolutely right, intimacy with what it brings just feels so unsexy. Yes. You know, so completely sexy. And then and so if and if you have that, and if because a lot of people go, oh yes, but we've got that intimacy and that, and then you do sort of sit there and go, but maybe we are missing out on the fun.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Which is which is also fine, by the way. Yeah, of course it is, yeah, yeah, of course it is. If both partners are happy with a sexless marriage, then why not? But if they cherish the intimacy that they have and they don't want to go any further, they're happy with that, then it's then that's okay, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 45:31

Yes, yeah, sexless is is is okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, this is something that couple can as long as they decide and talk through it. Yeah. If it's not an elephant in the room, yes, you know, and uh they really process and accept it about themselves.

SPEAKER_07 45:48

I think that's the biggest thing I always take from uh shows with you, Medina, is is actually 99.9% of things acceptable. Actually acceptable, as long as you're not harming the, you know, and it's it but it those are rules of the world, you know, you're not causing harm to people, you're not doing something illegal, you're and and I think that's a very healthy way of looking at it. We're gonna go over to you, Medina, to give your top tips for safe practice and aftercare when it comes to, I guess, sex games, sex fetishes, and so on.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

So uh the three tips that I recommend is the pre-phase, the during phase, and the aftercare phase. So for the first phase, you really want to talk through what you're gonna do to each other, what is a no and what is a no word. Uh, because in some cases in BDSM practices, you're not able to pronounce it because your mouth is closed. So there has to be a sign that would signify that you're not okay. So sort of like a stop word, right? And then so you talk through these things, maybe even write them through, and maybe even in some cases, couples decide to take to make like a written agreement kind of make me think of uh 50 shades of grey when you know it was all written down, whatever. It's a very tricky movie, I don't want to discuss it now. But um the second phase when it's actually happening, and no matter how well you think you know each other, things can get on the way, people get can can get in touch with really difficult emotions. So the best thing to do is to go slow, especially in the beginning, and to keep on checking if this is okay. And then the third part, which we discussed earlier, is the aftercare and making sure that uh both of you, and you know, this is something that you ideally discuss before uh you engage in in this practice. But you know, is this what you want right now? You know, you imagine that you want the tea, but is there something I can do for you? Because we know from research that practices like this actually can enhance the bond. The bondage can enhance the bond between not just the bondage, but any extreme, uh let's say kink experience that people have uh can enhance the bondage between the people and who is there to judge as long as there is it's consensual, uh, and as long as you know everybody involved is getting pleasure in the end.

SPEAKER_07 48:16

Oh, I love that. Oh my goodness. Medina, thank you so much, and thank you from all of us here. Have a good night.