When doing less achieves more

Hustle culture seems to be the fashion – yet we all know that if we take a break, we often come back stronger…this is the discussion we put to Rob Stevens of Optix Solutions and reflected on his insights where working smarter not harder is the key to success!

About the Show

Each Thursday at 4pm, we broadcast on LinkedIn and YouTube, with the podcast released on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more. 

Then every Friday at 8am, you’ll also receive a bonus podcast episode - a carefully selected recent conversation offering practical insight and timeless support.

Wherever you listen, you’re invited to pause, reflect, and reconnect: 

PODCAST: https://mentalhealthmatters.buzzsprout.com

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5dbYRwciNQ3c2hZwpsfxnNIvpijH4S2b 

Today's show is hosted by

Dr Audrey Tang www.draudreyt.com  @draudreyt

and Judith Crosier https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556005102240

Guest Expert:

Rob Stevens

https://www.optixsolutions.co.uk/about-us/robert-stevens 

Today’s quick tips come from previous gust expert 

Flora Nicholson

https://www.linkedin.com/in/flora-nicholson/

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters. I'm Dr. Audrey Tone and I'm Judith Crozier. And this is the show where we talk about all things mental health and well-being, but there are no hot takes, there are no quick fixes. We talk with experts in their field and we give you sound things to try, and they're always accessible as well because we know life gets in the way. Today we are talking about hustle culture. Doing less but achieving more. And this can be really problematic, especially for people who are entrepreneurs who are doing things on their own. They think they have to do everything, and it's really difficult to stop. But there is a massive difference between being productive and being busy.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

There is a massive difference, yes, indeed. And I know that you are the busiest person I know, but you're also the most productive. And I know we've spoken before, and I hope you don't mind me saying, but you you say you compartmentalize and you have to, and that's how you kind of get through it because most audio is a bit superhuman, and most people wouldn't be able to do the things you do weekly, but you you're very, very strict on when you do things and how you do them.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

But conversely to that is a lot of people will call me inhuman because I'm quite callous in the way I do it. And and I have an air of so we talk about using ChatGPT. The question I always ask Chat GPT is when I'm writing an email, could you make this sound less obnoxious? Could you make this sound less righteous? Could you make this sound a lot softer? Because that's my natural tendency now is to be harsh and things come out as harsh because I'm doing so much so much, and drawing back on that has actually helped me become a slightly nicer person, although it's not necessarily showing just.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Well, I think that if you're busy, you haven't got time for flannel and you just cut straight to the point. And a lot of people, including me, like people to be to the point, and they say what they mean, they don't say anything around it. But obviously, a lot of people do like how you have a nice whatever. So, yeah, I guess there's an element of that.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

But just because you're blunt doesn't mean you're not a nice person, doesn't mean it's very kind of you to say people actually know me. I'm trying not to be into my manner, and and that has been conditioned over the years of just doing, and it's not healthy, but I I also take the point about there is a difference between doing something productive, and I was reflecting on this yesterday whilst delivering session on burnout. I look for little projects sometimes and they don't need to be done. They give me a dopamine hit. It's like if you've watched Friends, Monica going into the chef's beginner's class, she felt good at it. I will go and redo or do things that I don't need another medal for. Oh, but the medal looks, it feels nice. That's a problem as well, because it's not productive. No, but catching all ground.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yes, but we do need to all take time out to do nice things, things that do make us feel good, things that do relax us. So, you know, if if you do that, does it really matter? Because I from knowing you, you won't be doing that and leaving something else that you should be doing.

SPEAKER_04 3:25

No, that you would have already done the thing that you should be doing. That is true. Yeah. But the question is, did I really need another one of them? Yeah. I mean, yeah. The answer is usually no. And wouldn't my time have been better spent resting and maybe coming up with a new idea which was more in line to what I wanted to do? Yes, the answer is yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

I mean, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_04 3:45

So we're gonna learn about this to you. This is why we've got Rob Stevens here, and we'll be talking about how to do less but achieve more.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Welcome uh back to Rob. It's great to see you again. Um thank you again. We're talking about how we can do less than achieve more, which is which is brilliant. So, what do we mean by hustle culture and who really pays the price for it?

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Uh yeah, great opening question. I think the um the price can potentially be very high for those who kind of get the balance wrong. And I think um social media's got a big part to play in setting um expectations that are just unrealistic for the rest of the mere mortals to achieve. So, you know, there's lots of kind of dangerous um content out there around, you know, everyone's got the same 12 hours, you know. There are people purporting to be getting up at 4 a.m. to have their morning kind of you know yoga sessions who then start work at you know half four, you know, with a coffee and whatever. There's this strange thing um I've seen as well, where people are sort of waking up three hours before they normally have to to get their own me time in to then do a you know nine to five job to then come home to go to the gym to try and find time for family, friends and all the rest of it. So your day could end up looking like, you know, sixteen, eighteen hours. And um I I think for any of us who've lived a bit, you've kind of realised that that's not sustainable, and um you know, even when you're younger, that probably was pushing the boundaries of of what you know a human body can actually do. Um yeah, it it's hard not to compare yourself to what certain influencers are pushing out there on social media, but I think um everyone's gotta do what they feel is is right for themselves and what they have capacity for, and that changes on a day-to-day basis, right? Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Yeah, absolutely. We're not all Margaret Thatcher, are we? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

We don't have to be.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

No, no, and we shouldn't be, probably, yes. Exactly. Um so what are the psychological and physical costs of constant productivity that people tend to underestimate?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

So I think uh there's a tendency to confuse busyness with productivity, right? So just because you're hustling you know, for 16 hours a day, i it doesn't necessarily mean that you're affected. So uh you know, some of the most successful people on the planet, um you know, there's a great one about Warren Buffett, right? So Warren Buffett, probably one of the most um successful uh investors of all time. And and he has a maximum of three things in his diary for the day. Three, right? So so um and and he'll prioritize like ruthlessly on making sure that you know he he gets those three critical things done, whether they're kind of decisions or whether they're actions. But um and the more I think about it, the more I sort of quite like that. Yeah, myself. But but it it it it is interesting, and there's another sort of example um with Elon Musk where you know he his superpower, if you want to call it that, like lots of people think Elon Musk uh is is is an interesting character, let's put it that way. Um but the thing that he is is renowned for doing better than anything else is saying no to things. Um so he's absolutely ruthless at kind of making sure that he stays on mission, on task, he's very focused on what he wants to do. And if what you're doing doesn't align exactly with what he wants and when he wants it, the answer's no. And it's not like let me think about it, come back to you, let me okay, perhaps let's consider it's just no, right? And people might think he's quite rude or whatever he doesn't. Well, he's just focused, and um, I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, but he has you know is the first human being to achieve 850 billion pounds worth of wealth. So you know, financially he's doing okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Yes, he's doing something right. So yeah, no, I think that's a really good point because it leads me to the next question of well, does anyone really benefit from hustle culture? I know the influencers who are promoting it probably do, yeah, but the reality that I've seen and I've experienced in myself is that I get myself locked into a bit of a nervous system vicious cycle because I I get nervous when I'm not doing something. So I think, okay, to calm myself down, I need to hustle. But actually, that hustling that I'm doing is just scrabbling around for little projects that I really don't need to do, but I just feel busy. And then I just exhaust myself. So it's not even productive at all, and I would actually benefit more from learning to take some time out or going for a walk or going to the gym or doing something else that allows my nervous system to calm down or just channel its energy elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, I think a lot of it's got to do with kind of like the environment that you're in uh and the potential reward structure. Um, because you know, I'm I'm not gonna sit here and deny that hustle culture has no impact because that that's untrue, right? Like we can see examples all around us where people who work harder longer, you know, end up you know being promoted or whatever, getting paid more. Uh and and yeah, okay, so that that will get you to a point, but but at some level, it isn't gonna be about how hard you're working anymore or how many hours you're putting in. It it and I think particularly now with AI coming on board, it's gonna be more about outcome focus. Yes. Um and and so ultimately, what are the outcomes that are important? Um, you know, what are the priority thinking about critical pathways? So people who can put the right sequence of events together in the right order and then follow that through to a complex outcome are gonna be in high demand, right? So um uh and and yeah, I'm not saying that you can't go and and and work, you know, 15, 16 hours a day, because you probably can, but it's gonna be in a very low-paid role where you know, will you earn more than the person doing minimum hours? Yes, you will, you know, because you're doing twice as many hours, but but is that what you want from life?

SPEAKER_04 10:20

Yes, yes, and I think you're touching on on this next question, which is the difference between working effectively and productively and just looking busy.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:29

So, with that, is there one habit that people could either stop or start that would move them from busyness to actually being effective to effectiveness?

SPEAKER_00 10:42

So I think um probably the first thing to think about is self-awareness and and and you know, are you uh or are you not um helping yourself with the actions? So in in the example that you gave where you know you can get quite anxious and worried, and you think, right, I've got to start something, so you start something, yeah, and therefore you feel better because you're now busy, yeah, but then you probably then worry and think, oh, hang on, is this the right thing to be doing? Yeah, and it might not be, and I haven't hang on, what did I need to do? So in those moments, and I've had those as well, I think we all probably have, um, the best thing that I would advise is is just you know taking five, ten minutes out, you know, whether you go for a walk or whether you just have a quiet moment just to sort of really reflect, try and get your breathing under control. Um and then use a model um which has been around a long time, but I found it super useful and it's something that I've I've kind of passed on to many other people. And it's um eyes and houses uh priority matrix.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Um, you know, understanding you know what needs to be done today, and am I the best person to do that job? So they're your priority one. So, you know, is the house on fire? You know, do I need to be calling somebody? Yes, actually, that's probably a good thing to do before I start worrying about whether or not the the the living room needs to be vacuumed, right? So um I'm I'm being kind of glib to make a point, right? But you can apply that kind of thinking to all different areas of your life, and I think what you'll generally find is you've got enough priority ones to be done in a day, so very much coming back to um Warren Buffett and and his three things, like his three things will be priority ones, I guarantee you that. Like so he'll have looked at everything, and and and his priority twos are things that are urgent, um and and you know, so they do need to be done, but but they're probably not as uh important and urgent as the P1. So that's the kind of balance is look at Eisenhower's model and then try and figure your day out and your um tasks around that. And I think when you start doing that for a number of days or a couple of weeks together, you'll see like a marked difference in in how effective you are, and and and that's the thing there is by putting a combination of events together over a period of time will give you um a better chance of achieving your goals.

SPEAKER_04 12:56

I love that. I love that. Um, and what we will do actually is go over to see how the Eisenhower model works. The Eisenhower matrix. This is a quadrant, and you have urgent and important in one quadrant, urgent not important in another quadrant, not urgent but important in the third quadrant, and in the last one, not urgent, not important. So let's talk about how this works. You put all the things you've got to do into one of those four quadrants. And it might be that there are some things which are very urgent and very important. So, as the example Rob gave, you know, if your house is on fire, you might want to get out. That's urgent and important. But what I would put in there would be things like a doctor's appointment, especially if you think there's something wrong, it's urgent. It's something that you have to do. So get that those things done. And those are your key priorities. Then when it comes to urgent but not important, what I add on there is urgent but not important that you have to do it. So I've got we've got to walk a dog. We've got to pick up children. It's urgent. Is it important I do it? Well, maybe not. So I have a dog walker. Or I might tell my husband that he has to walk the dog, and so on. So if it is urgent, but it is not important you do it, delegate it. Then you've got the it's not urgent. It is potentially important you do it though. It is not urgent. That's the key thing. That might be something like meeting up with a friend. You've got to do it. You can't send someone else in your place, you can't delegate it. But what you can do there is delay it. I can't do it this week, but I can do it in two weeks' time. Don't delay it so far that it does become urgent and important. But delay whatever it is, because it's not urgent that it has to be done, but it is important that you do it. And then the very last one, not urgent, not important, delete it. Things that go in there, mindlessly scrolling through social media to feel occupied, that may not be productive at all, may not even be effective. In fact, it won't be effective, just delete it. So those are your four quadrants, and those are the four things to do. You either do it, you delegate it, you delay it, or you delete it.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Welcome back to Mental Health Metterns, where we're having a great chat with Rob Stevens um about how we can do less and achieve more. So on that note, how can someone tell the difference between productive effort and performative busyness?

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Um, so I think trying to be you know honest with yourself about your goals and um for for a lot of people, sadly, they they haven't taken time to really think about what it is that they're trying to achieve, and so therefore it's really difficult to to to help that individual go somewhere when they don't know where they're going. You wouldn't, you know, go on a you know, somebody said to me, you wouldn't get in your car without knowing where you're going, right? It's it's like you because why are you sat in a car? And it's a bit like sometimes people can find themselves in a career but but not actually know where they're trying to get to, and and so taking the time out to figure out like what it is that you're trying to achieve, I think is really valuable, and that does change, doesn't it? It changes changes with what's happening around you, it changes with you know kind of what might be going on with your family or whatever, whatever, right? So I think um making sure that you you've got a real clear idea of what you're trying to achieve is probably the first part of things, and then once you've got that bit figured out, you can then start putting in um I like to call them kind of pillars, right? So you probably want to have three pillars um of key achievements that will support that larger one goal, um, and those three pillars are probably something that need to get done over this next year, right? So, if for example we're talking about um, you know, I want to be promoted, okay, fine. So, in order for that statement to be true, what are the next key things that becomes your critical pathway that you must do in order to get that outcome achieved? And once we know those three pillars, they then become your more sort of like um medium-term objectives, the longer term being the promotions, then you've got your medium terms, and then each of the pillars have probably got five uh tangible behaviours or actions that you can do on a daily, weekly basis, right? So you could then go, right, in this day I need to get this, this, and this done to make sure that I'm working towards that pillar goal. Um and and I think that kind of like systemized approach to things, um, if you can align that with your business and life objectives, will then give you like a a model that you can um apply and reflect back on to say, and it's interesting because what what normally happens is people can remember the one thing and they might remember the the three things as well, and then they the the the five each actions that kind of build up that pillar, they probably know some of them, but but like subconsciously, if you've written them down, you've gone to the effort of of making that document, you can you you often find you reflect back on it, it's like, oh, I did do that, like oh yeah, go me, right? Like, and so it's a nice thing if you're if you're driven by those kind of like micro achievements and you like the kind of tick box approach and systemized them, then then it's a really good model to use.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

Yes, agreed, because that you get the dopamine hit every time you do that micro thing, but you have aligned it with your goal, which is the most important, because I think a lot of the time we're busy but not aligned.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Yeah, we're just doing. Yes, I think so. Um, so if we work in a in a place that rewards overwork, how can we do less and still achieve what we need to?

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yeah, um, difficult question, right? So, and I think sometimes culturally you might be in an environment that is um reflective of what we just described there, and it and it may have been around and predates your uh time with them. So um I I think this is one where you know somebody somewhere has to sort of like press pause on this and say, Can I just you know ask the question, right? And and and can we have that conversation? And it might be that that's the answer is no, right? You get shut down and it then it's like no, this is how we operate, this is what we do, this is how we're successful, okay. And and I think you know, well, okay, there's an honest answer, we can deal with that, and we've got to make a choice about whether we stay in that environment or whether we move along. Um because I think you know, if you enjoy those environments and it's something that you kind of find you know fulfilling, uh it I I it's not for me to question. Um but if you're finding that it's not uh something that you're uh comfortable with or it's not sort of you know helping your mental physical health, then I think you've you've you've got to make a choice there, right? That that that's gonna you know f find an environment that you're gonna flourish within and and and and different people want different things and need different things. So you know I've worked in those, you know, I used to work in in publishing where we had like hourly deadlines, and you know, with you've got a newspaper to get out, you know. Remember those things, newspapers, right? We've got a daily newspaper to get out. So so every day, and and and I I went from school and college and straight into kind of publishing, so like it was wild, like I'm in London and everything's super fast-paced, and um, but at the same time I was like 19, 20, so I I loved it. Yeah, um, but I remember after like three three years, I'd I probably aged about 20. And and um and I realized that I couldn't I couldn't carry it on, right? So and and some people do, and that's fine, but but for me it it just wasn't somewhere that um was a healthy environment.

SPEAKER_04 20:53

I think that's that's a really honest response, and I think we do need to look at ourselves honestly as well. And it's not just is this the environment that mentally I can cope with, it's also physically as I get older that I can I can't hustle quite as much as I used to because I just don't have the energy anymore.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

So on this um a doing list, what does that actually mean and what does it not mean? Because I've been using this phrase, I used to use this phrase clearing deck chairs on the Titanic to talk about um managers who actually just busy themselves doing you know that's not relevant and actually they're not dealing with the actual thing. But I think this can this can concern entrepreneurs who are lost in hustle culture. But instead of giving an example from entrepreneurs, I'm gonna give you an example from my my school days where I spend all this time drawing the most beautiful exam revision timetable, straight lines, coloured in boxes, all of those things, not revising. Yeah, I didn't think I live enough to what way does stepping back actually lead to a better outcome? So where can we do? Less and and actually achieve more.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

So I think uh again it's uh it comes back to self-awareness, which I raised before. So you know, being really honest with yourself about where you're most effective and and where you know what is your superpower, right? Where are you the best at? Um and and and what are the tasks that only you can do, or that you know it because you you're not going to be the best at everything, or you shouldn't be, right? That's we're in a dangerous position if you're if you're the best person for every single task. So it's about again being really focused and prioritizing, um, and then working with your team, if you've got a team around you, about okay, well, who else um is going to be able to pick up, I don't know, the financial reporting, who else is going to be able to do the tax return, who else is going to be looking at the proposition, who else could potentially go to that um networking event, right? And and and uh you know, if you keep coming back where the answer's only me and you might be a sole opener, um, well, okay, that's you made that choice when you went into it, I would imagine. Right. So you're gonna have to deal with it. But but if you're not a sole opener or or you know, um a team of one, then there are gonna be options, and then I think it's about understanding where you fit, where you get the best outcomes, but then being really honest with your team to say, look, okay, I I want to step back from these, I need you to kind of step forward and and pick these up. And but you can do that in a really um empowering way to say I've noticed that you know when you've done these tasks or when you've kind of taken this on board, you've you've got some fantastic outcomes, and I want to see those kind of replicated, and and that should be for those individuals to to kind of develop their own um superpower in an area that they can take forward and and and and own. Um and I think if everyone's kind of in that high performing zone, then uh that that hopefully grows that kind of culture. So you can, as a as a business owner or a leader, you can and you should be doing less, like your team, you what you're trying to build ultimately is a situation where you become redundant and the team will autonomously move forward and get a better outcome than what you'd achieve by being there. And and you can do test these sorts of things in small ways, like you can be away for a day or a couple of days, or you can then be away for a week. And um, you know, when I joined the business that I'm with now, the the the two founders have never had a holiday longer than a week. Wow, and I was like, Well, well, I I'm you know, that was 20 25 years of and I was like, I'm not I'm not joining if that's gonna be the case. You know, like you you guys, you know, you need to be able to take a couple of weeks away, you know, you need to be able to go travel and experience the world. Um and and they just couldn't see a way to do it. Um and it did take a while, it did take a couple of years to build the people and to build the systems to get there. But now I'm happy to sort of say that one of the promises that I made to um one of the founder's wives was that they would be able to take their family away for a couple of weeks without the business sort of interfering. And they did that, you know, a year or so back. And and and his wife actually grabbed me and sort of said, Thank you, you know, so much because that's just something we've never been able to do before you joined.

SPEAKER_04 25:07

And beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

But what a great gift to give, right?

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Absolutely, and I think that's such a great example because just carrying on pushing and carrying on trying to have hold everything and handle everything, it doesn't help you. And and so, linked to that, what role does rest, does recovery and even boredom play in peak performance? Because I think one thing you've highlighted there is being able to go away with your family. It's not even so much about the I don't know, the emotional reconnection or whatever, it's the fact that you've been in a changed environment. Maybe you've even seen something which you can bring back, or there's there's so much that you've opened your mind up to. So, where does does rest and recovery become so important?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yeah, uh uh throwing out some another another sort of like iconic figure here, but Steve Jobs, who is um you know an interesting individual, another interesting individual, but he was very good at creating space for thought. And so um he was able to to uh to weave into his day um walking sessions, like an hour, right, at as an absolute minimum, where he would take problems you know with him on that walk. And the very fact that he was able to kind of get his kind of breathing rate sorted out and he was able to clear his mind, he wouldn't take his phone on purpose. He was like, I'm literally gonna go on this walk. Yeah. No one's gonna kind of disturb or contact me, and I'll I'll do that and I'll think on the problem. Um and it's another thing which um actually like Einstein um said, you know, whilst he was never the smartest person in the room, his his kind of superpower was that was focus. So he was able to sit with a problem and stay with a problem without getting sort of distracted or frustrated. And he was able to do some very deep level thinking and go beyond, I guess, um, the boundaries of what others were doing to come up with answers that no one else had sort of considered before. And and in a very profound way, you know, the the the research that he's done is still kind of uh being unraveled now, and it's the same thing, I guess, but on a business sense with Steve Jobs, where he was putting out products that no one had ever thought of or seen before, but they now we have like the iPhone, which has completely changed the world, right? So um, but that wouldn't have happened if they weren't able to take that time out to kind of really do some um deep level thinking. And and and so uh, you know, can you apply the same techniques to your own life? I think you can, and you should, right? You should make time. Um, you know, we we seem to be like hyper stimulated at the moment, but we've got these devices that we're all attached to, and and and we're constantly kind of scrolling through and and and what are we doing, right? You know, videos of cats or poppets, and I don't know, but it's it's it's not actually allowing people to really think about where they are, you know, what's important to them. Um and and uh you know if you're gonna spend four hours a day on social media, that's what it it you talked about being busy, right? The hustle culture and and actually well, what what is it that you achieved in those four hours? Yeah, you know, like scan through a whole load of videos. Um, but ultimately would you have been better off taking some time out to really reflect and think on you know what it is you're trying to achieve this year or this month or this week, and and actually, oh, there is something I've been putting off for a long time, and I I do need to make a decision about whatever. Okay, it is a probably you know, the reason why you put it off is because it's complex and it's difficult and it is you know, there might be some consequences to it. But so sit with it, sit with it. And most people are very um uh got great kind of like you know, mental powers to be able to kind of really apply to these things, and and but it does take focus, and I think that's what a lot of people are missing.

SPEAKER_04 28:50

Yeah, yeah. And I think whilst you were talking, I was thinking that what you're talking about is there's a real difference between being occupied and being productive. And then it's also to do with the intention as well. If you are intending to rest by watching a series on Netflix or whatever, that's okay. Yeah, that's your intention. But if you're kind of doing it because I don't understand, I don't know what to do, maybe there's other things that you could focus on instead. It it is about intentional behaviour and yeah, not mixing, I guess, being occupied. Um, Rob, we are keeping you, and we'll be back just after a tip from one of our guest experts. Flora, what what are some of the common issues that you see in teams today?

SPEAKER_03 29:39

You know, it's really I was thinking about this, and you know, I as we I speak to so many teams, I think what I've really seen is that people at the moment are really overwhelmed. And you know, the world is this difficult place right now. And when you speak to friends and colleagues, a lot of people say, you know, I haven't really slept really well, and I think everybody is struggling, and that's something that I'm hearing a lot. And in terms of my my background, so I'm obviously focused on strategy and performance management, and I think a lot of the time we are lacking that clarity of what is it we're supposed to do. So think about it. You might have a team that's really constrained and really doesn't have you should have a couple of people more, but there is not the budget for it, and people have to deliver the same amount of work, and then plus whatever is happening outside of uh work, it's a lot for people to handle. So I think I would say it's really important for me to when I speak with this team to think about how you can have that clarity of what can you what do you have the actual capacity to achieve. And if you can't do everything to have that conversation, it can be really hard to just really start there because like 90% of the time I think people are talking about too much, like way too much. And that just means a lot of pressure for people. So to ease that pressure makes a huge difference to teams, and then when they can you know feel less pressure at work, they will feel better at home as well.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

It comes back to finding space again, doesn't it? It's that conversation, it's finding space to listen, finding the space to be able to put in the support that you actually need.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, where we're talking to Rob Stevens about doing less and achieving more and hustle culture. Um, Rob, so what responsibility would you say leaders have in either reinforcing or dismantling hustle culture culture?

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Yeah, it it it's a big sort of part to play, right? Because I think the leader casts a really long shadow within within any organisation, and so they they have to kind of be consciously aware of of um their own behaviours, their own actions, because you can't sort of try and drive through um a culture where the two things are disparate, right? So you know, it's yeah, do as I say, not as I do, sort of thing. That doesn't wash, right? I mean, we learned that when we were kids, so um trying to apply that kind of same thing to a room of um adults is is never gonna fly. So um you've got to kind of you know take your own medicine here. And I think you know, I I've had to create space for myself in my week, which is typically on a Friday, um, where I can do some thinking, you know, I can have a moment to perhaps walk the dogs or go for a swim. Um I'm self-employed, so I'm kind of very fortunate that I'm able to create that in my diary. Um but even when I was in a PLC and I was an employee, um I I've been on the other side of it where I've, you know, I was working sort of a 12-hour day um because I thought that was kind of what was required and needed. But but guess what? Like there's always another email coming in, or there's always another meeting to be on, and and and I was incredibly busy, but probably not hugely effective. Um so I think coming back as the leader, um, you know, I found that when I was with that PLC that like my team were all kind of fussling along as well, we're all busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. It takes a strong person to sort of step out of that and go, hang on, are we actually achieving what we're trying to get done here? Um and if the answer is no, then I think that there's space there to kind of ask a question and um try a different approach. And and and often um when you're most effective, it's when you're calm and relaxed, and when you have that um focused and and and uh intentional kind of approach to things as opposed to just kind of trying to get through you know the next meeting or the next kind of decision or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And so so linked to that then, how can teams measure success in ways that don't just reward exhaustion?

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Yeah, so th this is um I think about building the the framework and the structures that that kind of work for you. So, you know, I often refer to these as levers, right? That you you you know, or or um measures of success is another term I've used to describe these. And so make those um the things that really matter. So thinking deeply about um what's really going to impact your success. And so in a business environment, that could be your client retention. Um, and and so how do you measure client retention? Um, well, you can look at kind of the leaders, but you can also look at um things like your net promoter score, so you know how many of your clients will actually kind of um promote your products given the opportunity. So that could be one of your key measures to take away, which isn't necessarily about busyness, is it? You know, it's like you want your clients to be happy in promoting you. How do you do that, right? So that that is a different approach to work. Um you could look at things like um if it was um a customer service environment, it's like first contact resolution. So what that means is we're trying to get things right the first time, we probably spend more time, not less time. So we we want you to do fewer conversations to really dig into the detail of it, to understand the client's um situation and then fix it, right? Even if that takes half an hour, whereas a lot of kind of work environments were like, oh no, you can't spend half an hour with a client, you need to spend six minutes. Then you go, right, okay, um what what what what hang on, six minutes, yes, ideally, or less, or less, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

So I was thinking that.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

So there's there's there's there's lots of kind of um measures, right? But but but are we are we kind of applying the right ones for the right situation? And and I think if we're not, then let's kind of raise that and ask that question. Uh because you can get a better outcome by doing less in those situations. I've I've worked in those environments and and and it is there's a massive difference between those that are driving kind of productivity measures and those that are outcome-focused. And when you work in an outcome-focused environment, it is so much more rewarding, I think, for your clients and your customers and also your team.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

But but those two things trying to do the same, but just applying different measures. And so, but that that structure and those processes can have a huge impact on how people um actually feel about the organisation.

SPEAKER_04 36:20

It's a different energy, it brings a different energy when you're focused on either just productivity, I must get out this many things, and actually I just want to retain my clients. It does bring a different sort of style of work, I think. Um now, this is something which I think I've begun to do recognising myself, but I see this in other people. So, what would you say to somebody who thinks that they are burning out or perhaps it's showing symptoms of burnout, such as they're maybe a bit slipshot in their emailing or or they're making mistakes which they wouldn't normally do, but they feel they can't slow down or their work just doesn't allow them to slow down. And I come back to probably solopreneurs and entrepreneurs, it it's a difficult situation to be in.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah, it it it it can, you know, I've been there myself, right? And um I remember um probably the first time it happened, and I was I I guess in my late 20s or something, and um I I went to have a conversation with my um finance director, who's my boss at the time, and and just said, Look, you know, I've got whatever, 60 people, and we've got three different teams, and I'm trying to do this, this, and and and I'm just overwhelmed. And he was like, hang on, hang on, like just slow down. Can we get a meeting booked in? You can take me through everything that you think you know you need to get done. And I remember um just that simple thing about slowing down and saying, I'm not gonna deal with this with you now, Rob, but let's put this meeting in for a couple of days' time. You need to go away and prep, get a proper agenda done, and then bring to me all of the kind of challenges you think you have. Um, and what was interesting was when I went and and and put it together now, and and the reality was I had loads of stuff, right? I felt like hugely overworked because I had pages and pages of things that I'd written down of all this stuff that I was trying to get done. Um, and and he was like, when we went through it together, he was like, Okay, look, that could go over here, this can go there, that can go to that person, I can help you with this. Have you spoken to them? No, I haven't. Okay, and what what had happened was I I'd I'd I'd um focused in, I was very blinker, thinking like it was I was the only one who could do all of this stuff. And and and I because I had the job, it was my job part, you know, my farm and my team. Um so very sort of um yeah, like insular thinking, and and and I'd compounded the problem by not sort of asking for help or not speaking to other people. Um so I think quite often it it's you know having that person who you know you can kind of support and help you with. Like if you've got a decent boss, they will help you kind of untangle that web. Um if if you haven't, then perhaps you know you might need to speak to a family or or or friend or um, or sometimes you know, like again, if you're already displaying signs of of burnout, then you probably need to be speaking to your GP and getting some professional support and help because depending on how far down that journey you've gone, um, will depend on what kind of support and help you need to kind of find that that that balance again.

SPEAKER_04 39:16

That is that is very, very true. Because yeah, if you leave it too late, then your body just goes, nah, not happening, and then you that's where you get stomach ulcers, that's where you get heart attacks, that's where you get all the other issues. But I think that's absolutely right. Uh I it's just such an important conversation because solopreneurs, entrepreneurs, people who are doing this on their own, they don't always have other people because they can't afford them. And at the start, you're just doing everything, which is is one of those things. So, kind of on that note, let's make it positive. Um, if people can only remember one thing about effort, rest, and success, what would would it be?

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Oh, I think um I'm gonna go with focused, right? So spend time to really think about you and what it is you're trying to do. Um, and that will then open up so many other doors for you, but also help you close things to say, right, hang on, you know, because we are all very good at at saying yes to so many things, we need to get better at at being comfortable saying no to things to allow that focus uh and and direction to come naturally into what we're doing. And I think that then creates additional time and space and will help you kind of rest um but rest well in the knowledge that actually you you are intentionally saying no to these things because they're not you know kind of within your um remit, they're not going to drive you closer to what you're trying to achieve. And like I said, if you haven't got that focus and that alignment, then uh you know, I think we've we we've all had moments where we just seem to be doing everything for everyone all of the time, and and it's just not sustainable. Just because some you know influencer puts it on social media, yeah, that doesn't mean it's actually true.

SPEAKER_04 41:01

So yes, it is very much it's an intentional, know what it is you want to achieve. Um, Rob, as always, it's such a pleasure chatting with you and so uh eye-opening. Yeah. Uh where can we find you if we want to connect and so on? I know you've been on the show before, but just for our viewers and listeners.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Yeah, I'm hopefully you'll be able to find me on um Google if you just kind of look at Google, Rod Stevens. You know, I I operate under Optic Solutions as part of the marketing agency that I run, but I'm also available as a consultant through WaveMind, uh, which is where I bring a lot of my philosophy's thinking uh into practice and help. Um and it is actually aimed at a lot of solopreneurs, entrepreneurs. Um so if you kind of like what you're hearing today and you want to know how to kind of move that forward, then please just get in touch because um you know you are the people that I'm currently helping and and want to do more to help.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

So perfect, because we just don't have enough for solopreneurs. We really don't. So it's so wonderful to hear that you're doing that. Thank you so much, Rob. We will head over to Test the Trend. Your test the trend challenge this week is the do less better challenge. And what I want you to do is to write down everything you think you need to do. Just write down everything. But circle of those things, one thing that's going to make the biggest difference. So everything you have to do, write those things down. Which one of those things is going to make the biggest difference? And it's just really, really simple. Do it. So we've come to the last part of the show. What did you take away from today?

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Oh, that was so interesting for me and for you as well. I mean, you've been an entrepreneur for a very long time. Way too long. Um I I just think that we all need to be maybe a little bit more I say all, I mean everyone, Steve Dobbs, in um taking some time out to mull over something, and also, dare I say it, more like Elon Musk, and just say no. Yes because if people ask for help, there's people like us that would always say yes and then try and fit that help in, even if it's to the detriment of something else that we're supposed to be doing. So it saying no is really hard, but actually, you know, we could all do with a yes, uh whatever it was, 850 billion would be.

SPEAKER_04 43:37

But sometimes if we don't say no, all we're teaching somebody is to be dependent on us, that could be the other problem as well. So there is there is an important aspect of saying no. And I think the other thing for me is to be self aware of what you're trying to get to. And if you don't know that, then it's so easy to go off in all kinds of directions and try anything, but actually, if you No, right. I'm trying to get there. Has this worked? No. Have I given it a good go? Yes. Right now, what? Let's try and change that. But if you don't know what that achievement is, or you don't maybe voice it because it's unpalatable, maybe the achievement that you want is I want 850 million. Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's all alright. So know what it is. So I'm gonna be just put on my psychologist hat here. Um, what is your aim for your cafe? What is your objective?

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Well, I have two A.

SPEAKER_04 44:32

Yeah, good, lovely.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Um I've I do like I love social events and I love so one of my my my first aim is to provide a lovely community space where people can come in and just you know, we had the launch, and I just loved people just chatting and talking to people they maybe didn't know, and sitting at a table with a tea and a cappuccino that I made and talking and having a nice time and saying, Oh, it's such a lovely environment, that is what I want, but also I want to make a living, yes, yes, and those two are really good north stars to to go for.

SPEAKER_04 45:11

That's it, it's always there. If this isn't in alignment with making a living, if this isn't in alignment with um my eventual desire to have this community space that's regular and and works as a hub, the answer's no.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Exactly. So I have given it a period of time and I'm gonna re-evaluate and reflect. And if it's not working for whatever reason, then it's time to do something different, whatever that might be. Yeah, yeah, change direction or do something else. But but for now, that's what that's those are my aims.

SPEAKER_04 45:44

I think that's fantastic, and that's really clear. And I I think if more people have that in mind, it's a lot easier. But when people talk about the North Star, it seems so far out of people's way that they don't really understand what it is, but it is just simply what do I want to achieve at the end of it? And if we haven't got there, then maybe it's time to reevaluate and do something different because that is actually what resilience is, it's not about endurance and just trying the same thing for the next 50 years. Yeah, that's not gonna work because um I'll end on a phrase my husband always uses always says is you can have 20 years of experience where things have changed over those 20 years, or you can have 20 years of the same one year experience. And that is something to hold on to. And on that, have a healthy week.