Showing Up, Self Criticism & Discipline

While we know that a critical voice can be very unhelpful, sometimes we need to have a firm word with ourselves.  Jono Poon, speaker, consultant and The Man Cave Ambassador  joins us to reflect on his physical training and how that provides a healthy metaphor for showing up for yourself.

About the Show

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Then on Friday at 8am (until the end of August), you’ll also receive a bonus podcast episode - a carefully selected recent conversation offering practical insight and timeless support.

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YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5dbYRwciNQ3c2hZwpsfxnNIvpijH4S2b 

Today's show is hosted by

Dr Audrey Tang www.draudreyt.com  @draudreyt

and Judith Crosier https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556005102240

Guest Experts

Jono Poon

https://www.jonopoon.com/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr. Audrey Tanning, and me, Judith Crozier. And we welcome back one of our favourite guests. It's John O'Poon. He is a speaker. He is a kickboxer, which we're going to hear more about later, and he is a coach and the man cave ambassador. So it's a real pleasure to have you here. Good to be back, thank you. Always brilliant to have you in the studio. And today we are going to be talking about the difference between discipline and criticism. But to start off this conversation, let's put this in the context of running. This is something we're not going to be talking about later, but I know it's something you've started doing. How are you finding that?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Well, I started five months ago and I've been trying to avoid it for the last 38 years of my life.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Yeah, no feeling.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

And it's got to the point where it's needed to be done at some point. Well, I say that because in kickboxing, which I've also taken up the last two years, one of the grading requirements in the black belt is to run five miles under an hour. Right! So that was one of the things that prompted me to go, oh, that would come up at some point if and should I go for that when it comes. It's probably another two, three years. I'm still far away from it. But I thought if I get started now, whilst I'm two, three years away from it, by the time it comes to it, I'll be comfortable. Yeah. And I won't be Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

You'll be alive by the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Yeah, I won't be, I won't be like, you know, at the back somewhere just getting dragged around.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Yeah, no, it's it's really interesting because I think sport or exercise is one of those things where it sometimes people do it when they have to. And actually what you've done is really clever. Yeah. You started it early because you know you might have to. So by the time you have to, it's gonna be alright. Yes. What are your thoughts on that, Jude, in terms of you know, because I know how hard it is to go back to the gym.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Yeah, I'm struggling with that at the moment, actually. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. To plan forward and to think forward where I want to be in two years' time and actually start now. Yeah, that's um, I think that's probably quite unusual, and it's not something I'm very good at in life anyway. So I yeah, I applaud you for doing that. I think it's great.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

But I think that is another really interesting part of the conversation we're gonna get into, which is which it's discipline, and that is thinking forward. Do you think we need to do this a bit more? You know, that we do need to say, okay, I'm getting to this age, maybe I do need to start doing a few more squats so I can actually load my dish washer or washing machine.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

That's another thing that prompts me as well, is anything we do now in terms of physical activities is also good for mental health, but also your physical and spiritual health. But also what your future self will thank you for what you do now. Yes. And it's at the point where it's important that we need to be fit and healthy now so that when it gets to later on in the age, that we'll be looking back and go, actually I'm active now because I trained for it previously, 20, 30 years, wherever years ago, but at least you started to look after yourself.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Yeah. I think this is one of the underlying real points of today's conversation that sometimes we do need to start doing things where we have no quick fix for it right now, but in a year's time, if we carry on with that pattern, our self is gonna thank us, you know. And and and because I think we can't always see that, it's really hard to start. So, on that, let's talk about kickboxing. Yeah, because you've just what what your purple belt, tell us about what that grade is, and then tell us about when you use the word discipline, what does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Well, I got to purple belt, and that's the midpoint in the grading system. Thank you. And that's the point where we've gone long enough where we haven't quit yet. But we also got to the point where we understand that we've still got a long way to go. Yes, but we've gone so far now, so we might as well carry on. And there's a saying that my coach Tom Banks says is a black belt is just someone that just never gave up.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Oh wow, love that.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

It's someone that just kept showing up and just never quit. And that was something that just stuck with me. I'm like, yeah, that's and then once you get to a black belt, eventually when you you start wearing the belt constantly, it goes back to white again. Because it just shows that you're just a beginner, you still do a long way to relearn and keep going.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

So even under a black belt, it's not really the pinnacle of growth, it's still something that you just go back to because eventually it fades, and the more you wear it, it fades and goes back to white.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Okay, I like that. Um very spiritual.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

It is, and that's why martial arts is something that's very spiritual, physically and mentally as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah, gosh.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

So that's the midpoint of purple belt, and there's times where I wanted to quit. Like about a year ago, so I was at my green belt before I got around to grading for purple, is the point where I was like, Do I want to carry on this in the routine? And you know, am I showing up enough? Do I feel like I'm good enough? And there's a lot of self-doubts that I still have, and I still battle mentally. Um, there's a lot of things that I just question is like, am I good enough? Why am I doing this? It's challenging, it's hard, and all of these excuses that just hold me back from actually progressing and growing. And I still have these voices. This is not something that you know I'm not saying I I know it all and all that, it's still something I work with myself, and I still show up in different ways and or not show up in different ways, but I'm still looking at going, where's this excuse coming from? Even with running, there's times where I don't want to run, or we run two miles, and I'm my ankle's screaming and pain, and it's just every time it's like you can just stop now. It's been pain, you can just quit. And it's like, well, I'm here now. Let's go, keep going and keep running and keep going.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

I like the way you've used the word showing up. I use the word discipline, you've used the word showing up. I I do you see those two as quite interchangeable words? Because I think showing up is a very positive way of talking about discipline, which feels quite hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I think it's how you it's the meaning you put against the word, right? And we talked about this previously, it's the meaning you give the words, there's the power in the words. And I think discipline can sound very strong and sometimes very imposing on people. Yeah. So when people go, oh, you like discipline, it's like, oh, yeah, I'm not good enough, I wouldn't bother.

unknown 6:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

And it's very disempowering in that way, and then you go through shame and then it's disempowering, and then you don't want to try. So then when you say, if you're showing up and you're doing it anyway, it's the same as you know, there's times when you don't want to show up in s in in work or anywhere, but sometimes you just you do have to show up and just be there.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah, yeah, literally, and I like that because showing up is you're just there. Yeah, you've you've gone to it, and so you may as well make the most of it, or they're showing up as in why I'm here and I'm gonna actually so I think that's a really good word to use.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

I think it's also a a place where you're not even if you're there, if you don't give it your all, yeah, that's okay too, but at least you're there.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

At least you're there.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

That's the main point, and showing up is the win. That's what I usually see it as. And when I say it to my you know my peers when I'm training with my coach kickboxing guys, is if I show up, then that's a win.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

If I make it through the session and I'm still alive at the end of it, that's a better win.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

I love that. I really think that's a very positive way to look at it. Um, if we now say reclaim the word discipline, okay, so it's now a positive word, um, how does that differ from punishment and self-loathing or self-criticism? Because there is an element of discipline which can be positive if you look at it in showing up. Yeah, it is I'm here, I said I'd be here, and now I'm here. It's it's not a punishment.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah, it's not a punishment. Um I think discipline's a point where we committed to ourselves about doing something, so then we that's also the integrity that you say to your word. And your word to yourself is in the most important part. And if you break it, okay, that's on you. Um but then you move on to try it again the next time. And there's that self-loathing part is I'm not good enough, the shame, the punishment, and then you go into the you drown into your excuses. Yeah. And then you loathe in that area, which then makes it harder for you to actually climb back out of it. Yeah, and sometimes it requires external people, other people to help you.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

And that's okay too.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah, so I like that. So discipline is more about keeping your word to yourself and putting uh meaning onto your word and the promises that you make to you. It's like almost like affirmations and self-affirming are two different words, and one of them means I think is weighted more.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

It's an act of self-love as well. You know, it's a commitment to yourself. You're taking care of yourself. You're you know, if people say you're selfish, then so be it. You have to look after yourself first. If you can't put yourself first, you can't put anyone else other uh ahead of you.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point, actually. So what does discipline look like then on the days that you don't feel like showing up?

SPEAKER_00 9:50

It's the same. It's just it's the same, it's it's the same. It's just two, it's the you know, double-edged sword. Yeah, it you can see it two ways. Uh for me, at least I see it as I'm still showing up and I'm still getting it done regardless of how I feel and if I want to go or not, at least I'm there. Like you said earlier. We're there now, we might as well make the most of it. And it's a privilege, I think, to be able to train and to look after ourselves because there's a lot of people out there that don't have the time, the energy, the ability to probably train the way we want to. And I think that that's something that is powerful in itself is we take for granted what we have now, and in the future we we don't, we may not.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Yeah, a number of guests have used that I get to train as opposed to I have to train, is that little change, that NLP neurolinguistic programming change of using the word get to rather than have to. I think that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

Yeah, and I'm really glad you reminded us of that actually, because that that's a really good point. You know, if you're sitting on your sofa and you think, oh, I can't be bothered to go out and do whatever it is, you can physically do it. So maybe then you have a duty to do it because other people can't.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody who's injured, yeah. Who won desperately wants to do it?

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Yeah, that's a really good point. It's a real good reframing. I I love that. So, kind of on that, then, what is the smallest discipline habit you know that can help make the most difference to the attitude?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

For me, it's confirming to myself the night before to say I will train tomorrow, or depending on what day it is, depending on my schedule, it's like if I have a slot somewhere, then do I fit in the training? Do I go keepboarding, do I go to the gym or do I go for a run?

unknown 11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

And it's something that you commit to yourself the night before. Okay. Where you're energized and you're still making logical decisions for for yourself. Whereas the next morning when you wake up, you're like, I don't feel like it. Yeah, slept bad, wherever it is, but you made a decision the night before to say and committed to yourself that you would fit this in, so go and do it. And that is it's this very small difference.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Yeah, yeah, I might do that. I do something similar, I actually just put it in my calendar. Okay. Just as a daily, I'm either going to run or do a workout or something like that. In and it might just be a 20-minute YouTube thing, but at least I've done it.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

At least you've done it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Exactly. I fulfilled my calendar promise to myself.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

That yeah, we we're gonna carry on this conversation because I think this whole talk about discipline, showing up, it's really important, not just in sport, but just in day-to-day life. We'll be back after a clip from the last time John I was on the show.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

My daily practices is to start the day with a cold bath, cold showers, and also five to ten minutes stretching and breath work because that just sets the calm tone for the start of my day. Looking after your nutrition. So getting pre plenty of cooked foods such as proteins, omega-3s, and plenty of water helps with just looking after your body in general, making sure you're having the right fuel in your body, but also knowing that caffeine and crisps and snacks isn't going to get you through the day enough.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters. We're here with John O'Poon, and we are talking about discipline as applied to fitness and sports to start with, but I'd like to now talk about it in high-performance environments. So, kickboxing, obviously, when you're being graded, but also leadership and showing up in the workplace. How do you walk that line between holding yourself accountable not just for showing up but how you show up, and also tearing yourself down if it went a bit wrong? How do you balance on that?

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Well, accountability is something that you ask yourself if something doesn't go the way it should do or it could do, then you ask, where did that go wrong? How could I do better?

SPEAKER_04 14:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

And that's the accountability is taking the ownership back and say, I messed up, sorry, what can I do better next time? And that's the fine line of that line. Of learning. Of learning. And and then we often also critique ourselves very badly when we mess up as well. So the inner voice that we usually have is something like you're not good enough, you're useless, da-da-da-da. Is that your voice? Is that someone else's voice? Yeah, yeah. And for me, at least, mine is you're useless, you're not good enough. And this was all came from growing up from my parents, because this is the language their parents used on them. Yeah. So they would use that kind of critique and feedback onto me.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Which they might think is motivating.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Which they thought at that time is that's how they teach, that's how you parent, that's how everyone else is doing. Yeah. Because that's generally in their age group, that's what everyone else was doing. But then I started to learn is this my voice to say I'm not good enough, or is this my parents' voice saying I'm not good enough?

unknown 15:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

And that's where I've been learning over the years is like this inner voice, this inner critique about account accountability is like, is it my responsibility? Yes, it's my responsibility. Yeah. It's also my responsibility how I could choose to fix it or how I can improve upon it. And is it for me to to deal with this? Is it someone else that I can ask for help? And there's never again asking for help, reaching out for support.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Because you don't know how to do something, ask someone that does know how to do it and show you either way how to do it properly.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely. I think that's that is that line, isn't it? That is the balance, isn't it? It's is it my responsibility? Okay, if it is, do I have to be alone in fixing it? Maybe I don't. And it's about that's the balance that you're walking. Um, have you ever fallen off the line into either, you know, self-criticism, self-loathing, all of that? Because you know, I know I've been there, I've fallen off the line, and then I sit on the other side of the line for ages, just you know, being angry at myself or or whatever, and it's really hard to get back up. So, how do you come back from going too far?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah, so I'm sure everyone has gone to the point where they're at their lowest point, or they feel like they're at their lowest point.

SPEAKER_04 16:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Uh for me it was in a corporate setting where I really pushed myself to exhaustion. I was showing up for everyone else, I was doing everything for I was saying yes to every single thing that there was to do because I felt like it was my responsibility or my job.

SPEAKER_04 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

And then I got burnt out. And then until I was physically and mentally in bed and exhausted and ill, that I was like, felt what felt like I was laying my deathbed. Like, is this gonna be my life for the next 30-40 years in corporate? And then I was like, Well, this is where I just sat in that mud where where we're just sitting in our thoughts, as like, am I good enough? Doesn't matter if I'm here, all of these dark thoughts. And then I was like, Well, you know what? It's just a job at the end of the day. Yes, it's like if this is not it, maybe something else is down the line for me. So then we have to find that balance again. Is am I going too far?

unknown 17:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

In a negative way, where I don't see the light in a tunnel because it was hard to see the light at the tunnel, especially when you're physically in bed, you're inbound, mentally exhausted, everything's and you don't feel like you're recovering because you're just so tired.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yes, yeah. And I think that's what people don't always recognise about burnout. It is it's it plays out physically as well as mentally. Yes. And then also the mental side of it becomes more problematic because you might physically then think, oh, I actually I can get up, but you just go, I don't want to, I don't want to see anyone. I want I remember a friend of mine who also got burnt out. She thought she had COVID because she was so ill and she couldn't explain it in any other way. She was just like, I've like, you know, I I think I've got COVID. I think I just can't do this. She was burnt out, she didn't have COVID at all. Absolutely just burnt out. And it's it's so physical.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

I can absolutely imagine that. So that's a really great example then of how um being hard on yourself, you know, can make you feel awful. So, how can we kind of avoid that, especially if we're naturally self-critical anyway?

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Looking at the words that you say to yourself. So, this is where I I'm sure I said this before, I think one of our previous um interviews is um catch yourself the voice the the the language you use to critique. Yes, yes, yes. And then keep a tally of what those words are, okay, and then reframing them to something a bit more positive, a bit more kinder, a bit more gentle. Instead of saying you're useless, you're saying you could be useful. How can you be more useful? Or changing the words of some I'm not good enough to saying I'm not good enough now, but then I would just have to put in extra work to get better. To do it more comfortable, do it more often. It's the same as when we're doing techniques in kickboxing. Yes, we don't know how to do an advanced moves at the moment, but we just have to keep practicing. And there's one saying that Bruce Lee says is I'm not scared of the person who practiced one kick you know multiple different ways. But he fears the person that practiced the one kick a thousand, two hundred thousand times and multiple, you know, thousand times, and someone that's really owned that kick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas that's the amount of mastery it takes to to get better. You know, you have to do something very comfortable, you get better at it. Same with same with interviews and public speaking, and anything we do is it's all practice and it just takes time to get better at. And we'll never get what people say perfect. Yeah because it doesn't exist, it's just progress, and it's just learning.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Yes, yes, that makes a lot of sense. So rather than them being self-critical and um being so hard on ourselves, what does a helpful having a word with ourselves look like?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Helpful word with yourself. I think it's just we the question I normally ask is would you talk to your best friend like that?

SPEAKER_03 20:31

Oh yeah. That's such a good thing to keep in mind, isn't it? And if the answer is no, you wouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah, the best time is no, and depending on how close you are with your best friend, sometimes you can use very harsh words on my. And sometimes it's very truthful, very truthful as well, but it's direct in a way that it's said with love. Like, hey, that's you could use a better excuse than that.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Like for instance, um I had one of my business partner the other day, he and he wouldn't mind me sharing with this. Um, he didn't show up to a coaching call with our community because his bedroom light wasn't working.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

And I was like, But your voice still works, your internet still works, you can still jump on the call. And I was like, come on, bro, you can't use a better excuse than this to not to show up. And he was like, ah no, I don't feel like it's and I was like, okay, cool, you know, but that's the I think is it something that you say to your best friend if the answer is no? Yeah, yeah. That's how kind you need to be with yourself first. Yeah. Generally, I would use more positive words to say to myself, kinds. And you're loving your your inner child as well, and you need to be kind to the child. Within saying yes, this is it's not nice now, doesn't feel good, but how more gentle do you need to nurture the child in order to get to show up and to overcome the obstacles that we're facing, whether it's challenges or limits, you know, fears, anything that we have?

SPEAKER_03 22:22

Yeah, that's a really good point, isn't it? Remember your inner child.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

I think it's really interesting because I know my inner child was allowed to run riot. My inner child could do whatever she liked. And my way of having a word with myself is actually having to say to myself, how much do you really want this? So it's I'm writing a book proposal. So, oh you know, I don't want to do this, this is harm, etc. etc. How much do you really want this? And that's once I've said that, then I can focus myself again because I know my inner child, my parents would have just gone, it's fine, you don't want to do it, you don't have to do it. That's okay, it's okay. And that's not helpful for growth, actually, a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

So no, so in a way, you are kind of talking to your inner child, you're going, no, but I do discipline, so I'm going to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

So it but I do I do get that. And I think sometimes we do have to be disciplined with ourselves in the appropriate way and with the appropriate language. Yes. Because self-criticism isn't helpful, but then just allowing yourself, I can't be bothered to do this, isn't right either.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

No, you've got to kind of tread that line.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

It's that balance again. We are gonna carry on with this conversation with John O right after this tip from last time Johnno was on the show.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Asking for help is not a sign of weakness, it's a strength, and it definitely doesn't make you any weak or any less than what you are. It's something to remember, and it's something to keep in mind. Make sure to find a mate, talk to a friend, or therapist or support group, and ask for help. Move your body regularly. Exercise isn't just for gains, but it's for therapy as well. Walking, dancing, exercising in general, 30 to 40 minutes a day, three to five times a week, definitely helps for rebuilding your mental health. Sleep is a game changer because seven to eight hours a day is good for you, but also less sleep fuels your anxiety, and also poor decision making as well. So sleep is an underrated game that you need to start sorting out if you haven't already. Cut out numbing solutions. Things like gaming, too much booze, partying, things that are you're just avoiding dealing with the problems is generally a sign for help. So reach out.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Welcome back to Dono, um, where yeah, it's a really interesting conversation. Um, what is something that you maybe used to say to yourself, and how did you unlearn saying it to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Well, I've mentioned this a lot, is mine is not good enough. And that is my core belief that I've got since a child, and it's something that I worked on over the last many, I think 15 plus years now, on myself. And it's one that came from my parents, yes. And it's one that's now what it is what I make out of it. So, yes, the core belief is things, whatever I'm doing is not good enough for now. So then I'll just have to work harder in order to improve it. Now, the way I unlearn this is I would just practice and just put in more time in getting better. So say things like running, yes, I'm not good enough now, but doesn't mean I'm not good enough later. I'm not good enough at kickboxing, but doesn't mean I'm not good enough later on. It's just putting the work and here's the reframing is what do I want out of this? For me, at the end of this, it's not going into the ring, having a fight and going to reading winning tournaments, that's not what I'm about. I'm at the age where I just want to be fit and healthy.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I'm energized, I have strength to do things and move things and be useful in other capacities. But mine isn't like I need to go into the ring and and spar and beat someone up. Mine is just being fit and healthy. So as long as I'm showing up and doing the work, that's all that the end result I'm creating is health.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Yeah. The intention behind it, we don't often take the time to think about that. We don't often think what is the end result that I'm actually after. And if it's fit and healthy, showing up is enough.

SPEAKER_04 26:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Because you're doing the class, you are still doing that particular thing.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

You're not sitting on the sofa still.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

And then the thing about the grading is like it's nice to have that acknowledgement how far you've come and how much you know other people feel that you have achieved in that space of time as well. So it's like some people don't like the belt system and they don't like wearing the belt when they're training and all stuff, but it's a nice recognition for yourself to go and acknowledge them. So actually, you've come quite far. Remember how far you've come from when you first started or from when you didn't want to start. And for me, it was didn't want to start. I was I fell into it because this partnership was forged by the founder of the Man Cave, okay, Scott Polter, and our coach Tom Banks. And they forged that partnership and said, Hey, can we refer lads to come to you for training and get some sort of other focus actually, another outlet? And then Tom's like, Yeah, come, you know, send the lads over and then we'll we'll look after them and two years under here I am with that, and you know, there's another another bunch of lads that's been training there that has found it useful, and I've seen their progress and their growth since training and how it's impacted their routines positively.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Do you mind me asking us just coming in with a question here? Um, with regards to the kickboxing, how has doing that impacted on, say, your confidence in other areas? So you're not gone into kickboxing to learn confidence, you've gone into kickboxing to learn kickboxing, but how has that then been able to transfer, maybe unconsciously?

SPEAKER_00 28:33

I think the discipline, like we talked about earlier, that discipline in showing up in kickboxing that you can apply it anywhere else. Like things that feel hard, and you're like, well, you know, I just got kicked in the face like the other day. Doesn't it's not as hard as that. And maybe, maybe sometimes it's um how I would see it is what improved in areas of my life is the focus, but also the ability to remain calm under stressful or intense or high-performing scenarios. For instance, if I'm delivering a speech to a keynote to a company that would some used to feel a lot more harder because you're doing it to a group of people you don't know. But then I'm training day in and day out with people I don't know in kickboxing anyway. Yeah. Like there's always different people you're training with, you're not always training with the same people, and there's there's new students and stuff like that. So it's like you take that confidence and that calm belief with you, and you apply it in other areas, regardless whether you're doing it intentionally or not. Sometimes it's just doing it anyway, because it's you've done the hard bits beforehand. And I think this is something that again goes back to running the what I've learned in that discipline and carrying on that next mile that you don't want to keep running on.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Yes, yeah, it's only the mile that you focus on.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

And all the well, mine is the the next step. Mine is the next step, mine's the the next step, and then it gets to the mile. But this is something that I've learned. Um I've been training with a veteran in the from the army, and he's is saying, just do focus on one foot forward each time. Don't worry about the distance, because that will come.

SPEAKER_04 30:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

But just focus on one step at a time. And that was something that just stuck with me, and uh, I've used that with everything that we do in whether it's for speaking, mental health, whether it's business, whether it's it takes away the overwhelm, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 30:43

If you just write next step.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Just focus the next step and not faking the next 10 steps. Yes, yes. You're not thinking about you're building the foundations, you're thinking the the 12-story building that you're building is focus on that one brick or one layer at a time. And this is something that I used to use as well in in Lego, is building your confidence with one brick at a time.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

So if you see your your life or different areas of your life is you're stacking the Lego bricks one brick at a time, and then eventually you start building it, and it gets really, really big and really, really tall. So it's building that kind of step.

SPEAKER_04 31:21

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

People could take away your confidence and knock one or two bricks and a few bricks away. Yeah, that's cool, that happens. But then you just focus on rebuilding it back up again.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Yeah, it's a really good analogy. I like that, thank you. Um, and interesting that you mentioned uh your army friend or your your veteran friend, because I was thinking um, you know, how in films uh uh the I don't know, the the boss in the army would like be yelling at some of his voice to to you know the the I don't know the the new incoming privates or whatever they're they're called. That's how I imagine kind of people talk to themselves, you know, you're so stupid, blah blah blah. So how do you what would you say to somebody who is hard on themselves in that way and just has you know shouts at themselves in in their head, um, who thinks that being kind to themselves is being too soft?

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Great question. Well kindness and being too soft is two different things for one, so you need to separate that that two.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yeah, that's very true.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

And being kind to yourself is just taking care of yourself and loving yourself. And yes, you can shout and critique yourself with a we are the our own worst critic. And there's language and things that we say to ourselves that's worse than what everyone else has said to us before. Yes. And I'm sure we've got to the point where it's it would get to the point where other people's comments, other people's feedback would probably not knock us anymore because we've said harsher things to ourselves before. And we we we have that, and it's okay to have that. But what I would say is if you think of a coach that you know in a ring, for instance, in a kickboxing ring, you have your coach in your corner, after the round, you go back to your corner and he'll give you some positive feedback about what you could be improving on. Then you go, Oh, okay, I messed up on a few things, I did I forgot to put do you know the basics, I forgot to, you know, to avoid or to just step on these little things because you're just so ingrained in the moment. So then you get positive feedback from your coach. Then you send back out, it goes, remember the basics, remember the foundation, remember how hard you worked towards this. And you get your confidence back and then you go back in the ring. And sometimes you have to nurture yourself in a way saying, What would my mentor do? What would my coach? What would someone else who have taught me would do better? How could I improve this? Instead of because all the negative whaz and critics we can make is you know is disempowering. How long do you want to sit in there? Again, how long do you want to sit in the mud for until someone goes, right, you sat in the mud for long enough now? Um for instance, and this is something that I've seen time and time again is like, you know, if you if you have pets or if your dog for dog walkers, this is one relate more. How long do you want your dog to sit in the mud for when they go in the rain and things like that? Well, you know, you've been in there for like 10-20 minutes now. I think it's time to get out. Yeah. And and and sometimes we have that too. It's okay to have that. What my mentor says is the pity party.

SPEAKER_04 34:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Have take a day out, sit in a pity party, in your pajamas or in your robe, bathrobe, whatever it is, and eat junk food, whatever it is. Do what you need to do. You know, is once you've done that and had your your moment, get back up. And this is something that we notice in in high performance, in high achievers, and you know, it's how quickly do they bounce back? Is the mental strength they messed up? Okay, cool. It's we see this in I think this is what we see in like tennis, for instance. Yeah. Like, you know, they mess up one set, they mess up the next set, but they have to re-bounce back quickly, otherwise they would lose the game. And that's the kind of mentality I think we can adapt. And I and we do live a high-performing life.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Everything's like, especially nowadays, we have everything that's tracking us. Like, we a lot of us is now so uh performance-based in terms of metrics, and we talked about running and timings and people chasing times. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, but especially but for someone who I just started, my win is just showing up with my trainers on, I'm going with that initial run, that next step forward. Yeah, um, and I'm sure the times will come regardless. And I'm not worried, again, I'm not worried about times because I'm focused about just showing up and just doing the work because everyone is different. But sometimes you have to take that first step. It's push through. You know what you need to do anyway, but it's making that decision and choice to go, let's just let's just do it that way. Whether it's two minutes, three minutes, whatever it is, it's just getting it done and doing something for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Which really leads me on to sort of my next question because you've given us quite a few really good nuggets: the one step, you know, one foot in front of the other, one brick at a time, you can rebuild. Um, do you have a sentence that you live by when things get tough?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yeah, it's one that I live. It's um it's from a Hawaiian saying, Haponopono. Oh yes. And it's I love you, I'm sorry, please forgive me, thank you.

unknown 36:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

But you have that intention to say that to yourself, but also to say that to others. And that's something that's just you can do this. If you search it up, it's everything. It's a meditation and it's a very powerful one because it's one we don't take time out for ourselves and acknowledge to ourselves. It's when was the last time you said I love you? I'm sorry, please forgive me. Thank you. And really embed and acknowledge yourself for it. And most of the time we we're so busy taking care of others we don't we forget ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

So that's something that you would say to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

It's it's a meditation, there's loads of them on YouTube, and it's really, really lovely. Um and they either do it just repetitive with music sometimes, and it's just it's a beautiful phrase. I think it's a really nice one.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

It's something that you could use even for things like road rage, if someone cuts you up. Yeah, yeah, and there's a moment you're like, ah, you know, just you know, remember this one is I love you, I'm sorry, please forgive me, thank you. Send it to yourself, but also to send it to them as well. So it's that person must be in a rush, in a rush, or some sort of things, like having a bad day, it's like I'm sending you healing and love energy instead of negative and rage energy.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

Oh yeah, that's very, very nice. And what's actually really nice about Hoaponopono is that um because it is a standard meditation, so it's something that can be taught, people use it a lot, it doesn't feel like you having to say, I must think about what you're feeling, and you know, it's somehow it's it's a part, it takes you one step away from yourself. So even if you're not feeling kind and generous to that person, this is a teaching that you can repeat, and it's slightly easier to do, I think.

SPEAKER_04 38:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Um what do you think is the hardest truth about showing up that people don't want to hear?

SPEAKER_00 38:59

The harshest truth. The harshest truth is you know what you need to do. Yeah, it's just getting on with it at the end of the day, and um that is the harshest truth because things like for myself, I know that in order to lose weight, I need to eat less. I need to train more. But half the time I'm eating more.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Yeah, I know that one.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

And I I trained a lot as like I'm gonna just eat up more to make up for it, I'll just train harder next time. And like that's my um self-sabotage moment is if I'm focusing on losing weight, then I know I need to eat less and train more. Yeah, but there's parts of me saying just train harder. And most of the time, that is the the again double-edged sword.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

It is, it's about people recognising what are you what are your own excuses? What are the things you say to yourself? And they won't be the things that you say to yourself, well, I think mine is very similar to yours. But I I think if you recognise and you're self-aware of those things, it does make it a little bit easier because it's like the person who didn't show up because his bedroom light didn't work, which which I love, and I think that is brilliant. There is somebody who is gonna sit there and that for whatever reason they don't want to do that meeting. But giving the excuse of the bedroom light, oh, I've got a physical excuse not to do that, that's great. That's where you have a word with yourself and start asking yourself, so so what are you really feeling? And what actually maybe do you need to say next time? Maybe it's about setting boundaries, maybe it's about saying no in the first place, or maybe, you know, maybe there's something else in there. I think it's just so interesting.

SPEAKER_04 40:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:37

Oh my goodness, John, as always, you have opened up the conversation more than closing, which is which is absolutely right. Where can we learn more about you? Where can we learn more about the man cave and so on?

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah, I mean, if you want to search my name, John O'Poon or the Man Cave UK, um, we're pretty much on social media and you can learn more about what I do and what we do. And yeah, that's the best way to just reach out.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Perfect. We're keeping you though, and we will head on to Test the Trend. For today's Test the Trend, I want you to all think about where are you currently letting yourself off or beating yourself up? And I'm just going to throw this to our to our guest, Jono, and to Jude as well. Where are you? Can you tell me at one area? I think I think I know what yours might be. Where are you letting yourself off and beating yourself up? And same with you, Jude, letting yourself off and beating yourself up. So John, I will go with you.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

My letting self-off is uh eating more. When you just know what I if I want to achieve losing weight, that is my thing that I need to work on. However, I'm not too concerned too much about it. I'm more about feeding myself the right fuel and the right food.

SPEAKER_04 41:56

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

So the nutrition is what I'm more worried about, wherever the portion sizes is not so much, more about nutrition.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

I like that. Yep, so that's the way you're sort of letting yourself up, but you've got a way of dealing with that. What about where are you beating yourself up?

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Beating myself is not showing up to training at times when I don't want to train. When I said to myself, oh I I should be going to training, but then there's always something that comes up and say, make an excuse not to train, or I'll do another day, and things like that. But my alternative is that if I don't go to kickboxing, then I'm doing something else. I'm gonna do maybe a kettlebell workout, yeah, or a body full-body workout in the garden, or I'll go to the gym. At least I'm doing something.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

Something, yes, yeah, I like that. I like that. And Jude, what about you?

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Well, the beating myself up thing is uh not finding time to go to the gym. You know, yeah, that that's it it's a fact that I don't have any time, but I can't find an hour a week to go. I don't know, that's what beating myself.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Maybe it doesn't need to be an hour, but yeah, then that's something you know.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Yeah, but by the time I drive then and drive back, uh yeah, I need an hour, you know. But it's yeah, it it's just a it's just a tough one. Um letting myself off, I don't know. I started um following a really good nutrition plan as well, so it's very similar to your your two, actually. Um and before I went back to work full-time, I was really following it really well and now slightly lapsed a little bit, so that's kind of letting myself off a little bit. So something has to give. Um, but I'm also beating myself myself up a bit.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

You let yourself off and then you beat yourself up about a bit. Usually exercise wise, I will then beat myself about it later when I've just made the excuses. So this is what we're all going to do now. We're gonna do three things, and it's very simple. The first thing is to affirm to ourselves this matters. Whatever it is we're going to be doing, we've decided to do it, this matters. This is important. It's allowed to matter. And sometimes that is really important to say to ourselves and to remind ourselves because it's so easy to go, oh well, I'll just catch up with it later. No, no, no. This is important. I've committed to it. This matters. It's about making our of our word mean something and bringing integrity in. The next thing we do is this is what I'm doing about it. So that's the action. Like what you're saying, I will do a kettlebell workshop instead. I will do something in order to train or to exercise. I will do something else. And that that that's what I'm doing. And then the last point, no debate. No debate.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

And I I quite like that. I like that one because there's no there's nowhere to go with that. Exactly. You have to do it. It matters.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

This is what I'm gonna do about it. No debate. Yeah. And then do it. And that's your challenge. This has been such an interesting conversation, and so many things are going through in my head now about how I need to do things differently. Yeah, so and take action affirmatively. Um what what's jumped out at you from today's conversation?

SPEAKER_03 45:16

Um a couple of things. One is um something my the the PC, the personal trainer that I had last year always said is whatever you do now will stand you in good stead for the future. And you you exactly said that. And you know, he said, when you're 75, you're not gonna be able to get out of bed as easily as you can now. And and so that's that's something I need you've reminded me, and I need to remind myself that actually I need to put in the work now for my future self. It's so important, and I'd forgotten that. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

I agree with that one because it's so easy not to think about it, and it is that whole thing about well, why do I need to worry about it in 10 years' time? I'll worry about it then. It's too late then. Yeah, exactly. It's simply too late then. If you if if you can't even get out of a chair, you can't even think about squatting to get down to a washing machine or dishwasher.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

Yeah, and and also, do you mind if I just say something else as well? Because because I said, you know, oh, I haven't done exercise for ages, blah blah blah. But in my 20s and 30s, I was super fit, super healthy. So and he said, then your body will remember that, and it won't take you long to get back to it. So I just wanted to say that because there might be people listening or watching who think it's too late, it isn't too late, and even if you weren't super fit and healthy in your 20s and 30s, it might take you a bit longer, but you will get there. So, yeah, I just think that's really important for me to rehearse.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Yeah, and the other thing about this training now for a year's time is I know your body changes. Um, certainly my body has changed in terms of just my centre of balance. So I it's it's a silly thing, but I used to roll a roller dance, which meant I was doing artistic stuff, so arabesques, all that sort of you know, spins, all of that kind of stuff. Now, if I even try and do a one-footed yoga pose, I'd fall over because my centre of balance is completely changed. And I hadn't recognised that because I hadn't done it consistently. I stopped skating a long time ago, you know, and I don't do the artistic stuff. But recently I got back to doing um just even holding on to a chair to do a bit of balance, and then I found because I got into where my centre of balance was now, I could do a couple of the moves without holding on to the chair, and it was just like, oh, there's my core! But you sometimes just need to recognise where your body's gone with it as well. So, yeah, but what about for you, Johnno? Just in terms of when you talk about all of these things, do you ever go through and go, Oh yeah, I need to remember to do that?

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Well, there was like I like you how you mentioned about the um the core, yeah. Because there's one thing that I started to notice when I started to running, yeah, um, there's a few times where I would trip over myself, my legs, when I feel like very heavy.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

And like I would trip over myself and I would get to the point where I nearly fall flat on my face. But then I managed to catch my balance, and I believe that's a lot to of the work that goes with kickboxing about working on your core and your strength and that, and that kind of catches me. And I was like, oh, my reflex has gotten quicker, because if I didn't react quick enough, I would have just stumbled and just fell flat on my face. But I was always catch myself when I trip, and like it's very sudden, like it takes and I and my kickboxing guys that run with me see me do that, and they're like, How did you even like catch yourself landing from falling? And I was I have no idea, I just that instant balance and reflex. And I think sometimes that's something that you need to remind yourself of that could be us in 20, 30 years' time when we're older and if we don't have that balance, that fall would be very, very nasty.

SPEAKER_04 49:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

So sometimes it's and I still saw this a lot of you know, a lot of people, trainers and nutritionists always say it's your legs is what keeps you alive because your leg muscles is what keeps you stable and able to physically walk around and and be safe. And I was like, wow, I did that. So sometimes when we look at that as yeah, your future self will thank you at some point for doing the work that you're doing now.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Even if it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

Yes. I think that is a beautiful thing to end today's show on. Remember, your future self is going to thank you for all the work that you put in now and from all of us here. And Mental Health Matters, have a healthy week.