What does aging well look like?

This is quite an interesting question because we are seeing a lot of uber-fit seniors these days – the 75 year olds running marathons, or the weightlifting pensioners…and while this is absolutely wonderful, for someone who isn’t running marathons at the age of 40…this might feel unattainable…so what do we aspire to when it comes to aging well?  This is the question we put to psychologist, author and column writer Dr Denise Taylor – and it’s a joyful conversation.  And by the way…we fell over, we didn’t “have a fall” (always!)

About the Show

Each Thursday at 4pm, we broadcast on LinkedIn and YouTube, with the podcast released on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more. 

Then on Friday at 8am (until the end of August), you’ll also receive a bonus podcast episode - a carefully selected recent conversation offering practical insight and timeless support.

Wherever you listen, you’re invited to pause, reflect, and reconnect: 

PODCAST: https://mentalhealthmatters.buzzsprout.com

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5dbYRwciNQ3c2hZwpsfxnNIvpijH4S2b 

Today's show is hosted by

Dr Audrey Tang www.draudreyt.com  @draudreyt

and Judith Crosier https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556005102240

Guest Experts

Dr Denise Taylor

https://denisetaylor.co.uk/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr. Audrey Tang. I'm Major Diff Crozier. And today we are talking with Dr. Denise Taylor. Now she is a psychologist, an author, and a writer on meaning and well-being in later life, which I I love this idea.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Because I think we need more meaning and well-being when it comes to getting older because it's something that we seem to dread, which see is so counterintuitive. Because what's the alternative?

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Well, exactly, exactly. We should all embrace getting older because, like you say, we don't want the alternative.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Exactly. So I mean, I know getting older is something that I have struggled with, partly because when you're younger, you sort of think, oh, what am I gonna look like? What's my body gonna do? You you've got all of those questions. And then I know when I have got older, they'll there are things I can't do anymore that I used to do much more easily. So I see those changes happen. Um, but at the same time, I don't think it's that bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, see, I disagree. I hate it. Okay, yeah. Yeah, it irritates me that the years have gone by and essentially I don't really feel any different. But I yeah, when I go to, I don't know, I when I think about I used to go on 15 mile hikes with my friends and didn't even think about it. Just used to put my trainers on and start walking. Well, you know, now give me three kilometres and I'm done. So it it it and it annoys me, it just doesn't it really irritates me that that has to happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Um so yeah, I don't know. I I think I need to learn to embrace it, but I'm definitely not, definitely not. So yeah, I I I and I think that my friends are pretty much kind of this the same as but actually when I think about my friends, it's all it's the ones with children that kind of made peace with getting older, and it's the ones without that are just like, no, I want to be able to do exactly the same as I could do at 25. So that's that's quite an interesting distinction.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Maybe that's a change of role, which brings to a change of mindset as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Yeah, I think so. I think so, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Although I always know two things when I um I don't have children, but I have friends who has had younger sisters, and when I've seen them again and the younger sisters are now older sisters, you know, older, I'm like, when did you get this old? You're nine years old, stop this. And that suddenly makes me feel feel old.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

And then as a teacher, when I see my year seven, we're all you know, 30 plus oh my goodness, what happened? I know. I've just been invited to a 40th birthday party of a friend who I first knew when she was eight. And we we both had a horse and we used to ride together, and I've known her ever since. And she can't be 40. She's eight years old on her pony, and I'm like, what does it make me? Yeah, I know it's it's really frightening.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Well, to unpack all of this, we do have Dr. Denise Taylor, let's bring her in.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Hello Dr. Denise, lovely to have you with us today. It's delightful to be back with you. Hi. Hi, hello. Um, we are wondering what aging well looks like day to day. So, not you know, aspirationally, but what actually does it look like in in every day.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

And I think it's very different talking it to my age because I'll be 70 next year compared to when we think about what aging well is going to be like when you know when you're you're of a younger age. And I think it's less about this sort of this perfect life where you're still in you know fabulous health and everything's going well. Aging well is in line with your age. Um, and you know, it's it's and I think one of the key things is about you probably just need a bit more time and a bit more time between things. So aging well is like a more balanced life and doing the things that you want to do and appreciating that some things might not go as well for you as 20 years ago, but that's okay because you're still alive and you're going, you're going and growing.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

I I think that's so lovely. Uh, because I know this whole aspirational thing, which is why I think that's such a great question to open with, is what I see so much of is oh, 95-year-old man runs the marathon. And I'm sitting there going, I can't run the marathon, and I, you know, I'm not quite there yet, but I'm never gonna do it 90.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

No, and I and I think that's that's the the thing in the media, they're always publicising all these people that are doing these amazing big things, and most people just want to be able to sort of like you know, have their life, walk up the stairs, can do the shopping, yeah, these sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah, yeah, but not hurt, yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Yes. My personal trainer said to me that one of one of the um one of the things that when you're getting old you really need to do some you know resistance training for is just so you can get out of bed without it hurting or without it taking 15 minutes. And actually that's yeah, that's a a very small thing, but it's a big thing.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yeah, and my to my talk with my personal trainer when they're trying to push me to do too much, it's like I just want functional fitness. I just want to be able to walk up the stairs in 20 years' time, yeah, you know, yeah, and carry my shopping and walk from the cars to the supermarket.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Yeah, not gonna do a TikTok saying, Hey, look how ripped I am, you know. Well you might. I'm not saying you should you shouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

You never know, put ideas in your head now. Um, so what do you think that we get wrong about life after after 50 or after 60? What happens?

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Yeah, I spent a lot of time thinking about this, and the really interesting thing is that I'm living through what I research, and I think you read people you read what people are writing about and they're still in their 40s, and they're going like you should just carry on, you know. And it's like life approaching 70 is not the same as life approaching 50. And I think that's where people go wrong because there's so many people out there who go, We're living longer, so basically you should just carry on working longer. Um but you're not the same, and neither should you want to just carry on in the same way. Um, you know, we should think that we are changing, and yeah, we can still carry on doing lots of different things, but appreciating that you are getting older, however much Botox and whatever else people have done, whatever they're doing on their outside, the inside's still getting older, they can't change their internal organs.

unknown 6:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

No, that's very true.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

And and I think with regards to that, um, it actually leads very nicely to this next question. Botox, all of the cosmetics that you see out there, they're all about anti-age. That's the word they use. Anti. Anti-aging. What is the cost of having that mindset? Because I will look at it and it's not even and I hate this phrase, for mature skin or something like that, but anti-aging.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, well, if you're anti-aging, well, what are you? Um I I I I think there's I mean, I would never tell anybody not to do something because some people a lot of their identity is told is, you know, is all connected to looking beautiful. And I think if you're somebody who's been like film star gorgeous, it must be hard when you're aging when you see yourself in the media and stuff. But I think it's more about just staying healthy. And for me, yeah, I'm gonna have, you know, have facials and stuff. I mean, like I would have a massage, but I wouldn't want to do anything that's gonna make me not look like me.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

And and sometimes some of the younger people I know say what they like about me is I'm not afraid of getting older, and I give them a role model for like what because I've still got gigs and things that I can you can still do things like that in your 60s. You don't have to sort of like reach 40 and think I've now got to hibernate because I'm old. Although I was with somebody yesterday who's 30, and she was going like, I'm so old now. And I go like, You're 30.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Oh dear. Oh gosh. It's all perspective though, isn't it? You know, it's yeah, 30 is just a youngster.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

And that's that mindset thing again, though. And I don't think it helps with people feeding these anti-age messages, and then you've also got women who feel that they have to be young enough to matter, and that is a whole mindset, and you see that reflected in the media, you know, as people get fired because they get older, and then films where there is never an age-appropriate woman, yes, as a love interest and things like that. And you know, A, what is the danger of this, and B, what happens if we finally drop that sort of thinking?

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Yeah, I mean, I remember letting my hair go grey and my sister saying, You'll look so old, and I said, I'll look my age. Um, and one of the beauties about deciding to go grey is it's quite interesting all the different colours that are there. Yeah. But you save a fortune. I was having my boots done every four weeks and it was like £100 a pop. And it's like this is a serious amount of money that I'm spending. So I think I think when you sort of embrace the age that you happen to be, and obviously a lot of it is to do with a mindset because if you're like happy with your age, then that's a whole different thing than if you're not. And I'm always reading about people going like oh, I'm invisible now I'm older. Um, and sometimes it's nice to be invisible, I guess. But I don't feel invisible, you know. I still hold my space and speak up. So I think if people think I'm I'm of a certain age now, I'm invisible, I'm not wanted, then their whole manner and just whole persona is ignore me because I I see myself as old. Whereas if you go like, hey, look at me, I got my you know, like me, I got the doctor at 64, it's like I'm still going strong, you know? So that's I think it's it's different if you're and that's but that's onto something I've been talking about, about being curious. Because it's not just about academic achievements, you can be curious about a whole range of different things. I think the curiosity is one of the things that keeps us young. I hate the term young at heart, but you know, just keep us vibrant, yes, is a word I'd rather use. That's a nice word.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

That's a nice word. And this is just a bit of a curveball question. I was just thinking whilst you were saying, and as a psychologist, do you think that age is another excuse? So for those people who are going, I'm invisible because I'm old, do you think that's actually just an offshot of the mindset of I'm invisible because I'm a girl, I'm invisible because Yeah, it's just a new thing to actually stop them being visible.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Yeah, it could well be, but I also think it's a good excuse. Because if you say I didn't get the job because I'm invisible, I didn't get the man, or whatever, because I'm invisible, well that's that's a good way, rather than thinking, okay, so why didn't I get the job? Yes. Um and often it's because their CV wasn't very good or their application wasn't good or the you know, the whole the way there's a whole range of reasons why people particularly aren't getting a job. And it's not only down to age, because I know loads of people in their 50s and 60s who still get jobs, but they go into the interview knowing their worth rather than oh, they're never gonna want me. Yeah, everything just sort of collapses in with that.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah. And we don't want that to be another excuse for not living life and choosing to live life. We're gonna keep you, Dr. Denise, and we're gonna go to a clip the last time Dr. Denise was on this show.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Because a lot of the work I'm doing with people is our mindset, and a bit like if you think you're too old, then you are, and if you think you're not going to get the job, well, you probably won't. And I've just bought a new car that's much bigger than any previous car. And I was even saying into myself, this car's too big for me, I'm not gonna be able to drive it. And then I had to stop this voice in my head and going, like, you're a competent driver, you've been driving for nearly 50 years. You can drive this thing that's like a tank, which I can. So, so it with in within the workplace, if we um if we go in there thinking, oh, they're not gonna want us because I'm too old, or well, maybe I should dye my hair and things like that, you're again giving out all these views that well, why would I employ you? Um, and I think also what I find with a lot of people with with um their CV, first of all, it goes back to being 16, people don't really want need to know your your O levels and things like that. So you have to de-age your C V and that helps, but you also need to keep up to date because a lot of people just blame employers, and it's not always the employer's fault. You know, it's that you've been um you've been a market you've been in marketing, you never quite got around to doing a qualification because you didn't need it, or now you've been made redundant and you do need it because everybody else has it, and you feel you're being discriminated because of your age. No, you're not. It's because the last time you did any study was 1984. And you know, and they're thinking, well, if they can't be asked to pardon me, if they can't be bothered to say, you know, to do any studies and keep up to date, then why would we employ them?

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters. We are here with Dr. Denise Taylor. She is a psychologist and author and writer on meaning and well-being in later life, and we are having such a great discussion about the how we can live well as we get older with vibrancy. And I think it's so beautiful. And this kind of builds on a question that we asked an answer that you gave earlier. How do you rebuild a sense of self which isn't founded on productivity? You know, when you're young, it's always I do this and then I'm running here and I'm doing that. And as we get older, maybe we do less, but how do we build that sense of self differently?

SPEAKER_02 13:58

I think a lot of it's about depth because I'm looking for what else we are beyond the job. Because a lot of people they say you know you carry on working because that's where you get your sense of purpose. But you can get your sense of purpose by smiling at somebody on the street, by picking up some rubbish, by you know, just whatever it happens is choking a cat. I mean, anything, there's everything can give us a sense of purpose, it's not just about the workplace. And now I've gone and forgotten your question.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Okay, it's it's it is literally about that productivity, building that life on productivity and then having to change that, finding that purpose elsewhere.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Yeah. I mean, if I could share an example of mine. Last summer I had a friend stay and she said she was just looking forward to retirement, and she goes like, Well, when are you gonna retire? And I go like, I'm never gonna retire because I love my work. And she says, Well, how long have you been working for? And I said, 52 years. And she said, and seriously, and you're not going to stop. And it was something about that that made me stop. And I took three months out, I took some off as spatical.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

And and it was great because it was like closed, no inquiries, I wasn't going to deal with anybody. And I came, and I came back and I decided you know what, I actually don't want to continue seeing clients. And I had a three uh couple of months where I'd sort of like wind everything up. And it's been joyful to move on and to have space. Because I think often when we're working, our whole we haven't got any spare time because we're either working or doing household chores. Whereas taking that time out is like, do I really want to carry on seeing clients? And I decided, no, I don't. But what I wanted to do was to do more writing, and you know, I now write for the eye paper, they keep coming back and commissioning me. And this is this is lovely. I never realised that that would be a possibility, and they probably wouldn't if I hadn't had the space to do it, because my whole time was filled up with clients, and clearly I write books as well. So I think sometimes we just need to allow something else to arise, you know. But it can be really scary taking that space, I don't know what I'm doing, but it will it will turn up, and it might be you want to carry on working, but everybody's different. But it might be, you know, you want to set up a you know pet feeding business or or go and learn Italian and go and live in Italy for six months or something. But these things are possible while we've still got a really reasonable amount of energy.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Yes, yes, very true. But that's so important at any age, I think. It's it's allowing space for that that something different to come in. You don't have to necessarily go out chasing it, but leave space for it. On a more serious note, though, there are financial considerations as we get older. So we may not have as much money coming in as we would have done when we were in our working lives. Um, so someone might have a lot of savings, but then suddenly they have to pay for health care, which they weren't expecting. What are those sorts of considerations that we really do need to take seriously?

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah, I've got friends who have no basically no savings and they're only going to get the state pension. And clearly they're gonna have a different later life than somebody who's got a substantial pension through their employer. Clearly, one of the obvious things is the younger you are, just start saving for your retirement. But you know, not everybody has spare money to do that with. And you know, I've got the money put aside that if I need a hip replacement or a knee replacement or whatever, you know, I can go pay private if needs be. Um because of the whole quality of life thing. But one thing I've noticed since I stopped seeing clients, and clearly my income level has dropped, is but what do you actually need to spend the money on? So it's sometimes it's thinking about well, clearly you can if you're not working as much, then you can you know cook with cheaper things. So you've got that, and you've not got all the expense of the work clothes and the things that you spend money on because you're exhausted by the job, so you want to treat yourself. I've got friends who every payday they go out and b you know spend whatever on your clothes just to get through the next month ahead. So I think it's it's something about that and thinking, well, do I need to do this? And like maybe instead of having holidays, you do you know, house sitting or something. So I think it's but it's thinking about uh what is more important and for some people it will be the money, but for me it's time. I want space and time. And to be honest, uh earlier this week I was offered some work and it you know it was a it would have been enough to pay for a decent holiday. And I turned it down because I'm gonna be true to myself. Do I really want to do it? 'Cause you say yes to the money and then no later because it's like didn't really fit where I am now.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Yeah, that's again this check and balance on ourselves and what our priorities are is so important at any point in your life. This is stuff that actually we should be doing regularly, not necessarily, oh now I'm retiring, or now there's a life change that has made me do this. We need to be doing it consciously throughout.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yeah, absolutely. It definitely makes you think. So, what would you say um a really great day looks like for you and your friends and for your your uh people who were your clients?

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah, I mean, a great day for me is like the days I have now. It's like now I get up more leisurely. I mean I still wake up early, but I have my coffee, I sit on my I live in the flat, I live on I sit on the balcony, I do my emails, and it's like a really nice, slower start to the day. And before I leave my flat, I make the bed, I tidy the kitchen, I clean the bathroom. It's like it's time, you know, like when you're rushing and you don't have time and everything's going out and you leave it in a mess. I just like that's a nice settled day, and I moved going to the gym from eight and nine in the morning to eleven or twelve. It's much so much more, so much more sensible. So civilized, very civilised, yeah. Civilized, that was the word I was thinking of. Um, and you know, and it's it's nice to be able to go meet a friend for lunch or a friend for coffee or to go for a walk or to do to do any of the things, but to have that space in between, because I don't know about you, but I used to do loads of multitasking. It was like gotta do this and do this, and how fast can I do everything? Whereas now, and sometimes I'll come back from the gym and I think, you know what, I've really worked hard, I'm gonna watch I'm gonna watch half an episode of a TV programme, occasionally a full episode, and it's like I would never dream I'd have been like doing that. But that actually is quite nice because it's a bit of recovery, and then I'll go back to doing writing or whatever else I plan to do on the day.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Oh, it sounds perfect. Blissful day, yeah, it does. Yeah, I love the easing yourself into the day sort of slowly, and yeah, it's a lot of self-care there. So you've already talked about some some routines that you do. What would you say will be some other simple routines that would boost well-being for people?

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Well, clearly it's about moving more and getting out and about. And you know, we all know this stuff about how you should see sunlight early on and how you should move more. And I was just thinking of getting a timer actually that every 30 minutes it pings and then I I actually do something that's like I don't know, jump about to some rock rock music or something for five minutes or something. But uh but I think it's you know, it's it's those little things because my watch goes off if I haven't, you know, I've got an Apple watch, and if if I haven't moved for an hour, it tells me to get up and move for a minute, but that's not quite like a five minutes dance around. But I think it's it's those simple little things that we can do. But I do think rest and sleep are important, and I used to pride myself on being somebody who could manage on less than six hours sleep, and again, I'm not sure it was a good thing, but it didn't mean I got lots of things done.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah. And I think Yeah, drink your water. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that's really interesting because that lack of sleep is a it's Almost a badge of honour, yeah. You know, oh I I had two hours' sleep last night, and I'm still doing all of these 50 things. So and that's not good for us. It's not good for us mentally, physically, emotionally, all of those different things, and we will suffer for it, but for some reason we're seeing this as a but but yeah, I mean Margaret Thatcher was famously, I don't need any more than four hours sleep.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

But it's only recently that I found out why sleep's so important, and it's literally in the last few days that I found out you you just mentioned Denise about um why sunlight is so important first thing in the day. I didn't know, and I I don't know if is it a thing that everyone knows? Because I didn't know, I know now and I know why now, but yeah, it's so important.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Yeah, well, there's something there's stuff in the media and there's stuff that we read, but we've got to be ready to read about it, haven't we? Probably if you're if you're running on empty, you're not reading stuff, you're just like task, task, task. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Sorry, I was gonna say we should be taught that at school.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah, and it's funny, one of the routines a lot of people that I've just had that, you know, you have that conversation in passing. They all talk about going out with their cup of coffee or tea to the garden, if they're or just outside to stand in the sun, yeah. Just to drink their morning drink. Yeah. And that in itself has just been a become a routine, and it's really lovely.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

It is a lovely one.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Oh, we are gonna keep you, Dr. Denise, and we'll be back right after some tips. The last time Dr. Denise was on the show.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

I mean, we we we we can't really change what's happening outside, can we? So I think a lot of a lot of it is is the thoughts that we have. Um, and you know, one of the beauties of studying was was going back to all proper research papers, you know, not just basing it on what you read on articles that you've seen online that might have just been made up. But there's some research by Dr. Becca Levy from um I think it was Stanford, it might have been Yale, but Yale. Um and she said that if you're optimistic, you're gonna live seven and a half years ago longer than if you're not optimistic, and that's the equivalent of uh smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So just having this optimistic with you makes so much difference. And you know, I fell over the other day. Um I fell over, I didn't have a fall.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

We were talking about this recently.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

You know, at a certain age had a fall. I fell over partly because the pavements are really uneven and partly because I was distracted and I was thinking of things, and I wasn't really paying attention to where I put my thing. And I could have fallen over at 30. Yeah, you know, and but it does remind you that actually maybe I do need to sort of actually look where I'm going if it's a rickety pavement.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

I did exactly the same thing a few weeks ago. I fell over. Um, I I I'm not I'm not I'm refusing to admit I had a fall. I didn't, I fell over. Took me a while to get back out, but welcome back to Mental Health Matters.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

We are here with Dr. Denise Taylor and we are talking about aging well, and that's not necessarily about running marathons at 90, it is about what a good day, every day, can look like. And actually, a lot of what we're talking about can be relevant and helpful at any age. So take note, and if you've just tuned in, you know, take it back because what Dr. Denise has to say is really relevant at any any any life life um point. Now, Dr. Denise, what have you come to value which you didn't previously?

SPEAKER_02 25:47

No, I just feel a bit repetitive because it's time. Honestly, it's just and I think my time has given me time to think. And because I'm a writer, my writing is much deeper. I've even written three academic papers since Christmas. Wow. Um because I've got I've got time to actually spend thinking something through more deeply rather than you know just rushing and doing surface level stuff. Um, and I think so that's that's just so important. I have space and I have time. And I I probably said last time about owning a woodland and you know, having more time to go there. So tomorrow morning I'm off there for a couple of nights, light the fire and just oh lovely. Take my hammock out and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

So nice. And it's it's interesting because when you talk about time, I think a lot of people jump straight to exactly what you said about the woodlands. But they don't consider what having time to process, having time to think, what that actually gives you. And you've been talking about how it gives you more depth, how it gives you more meaning. Where do you think we miss out when it comes to time? You know, it it's I don't because I don't think you are being repetitive. I think we're just taking this to a deeper level.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Yeah. Well, I th I think a lot of people, and well, if I think about me of just basically just a year ago, you know, there's just you're trying to cram in so much, and it just means that you do things on surface level. Yeah, you know, if I think about the blog posts I used to write, it would be that'll do. Um rather than now I think of something and then think, actually, that will be a good topic. And I think I think it's through. Um, and you know, I write on Substack, and you know, that's it's going down well, and a lot of people like my articles because they are deeper. Whereas I think when I first started it was a bit more, I need to start, I need to start put putting out content and it doesn't really matter as long as it's there. Yeah. Whereas now is it needs to be thoughtful and I don't put out everything, I start writing, it's like, no, this isn't gonna work.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

So I've got time to rewrite it, you know?

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah, you're you're actually not just putting out content, you're putting out a way to connect with you and a way for people to connect with themselves, and that is a lot deeper. I think there is a problem with today's social media world of content, content, content, which is very let I must keep posting, whereas actually the depth of what you're saying is what shifts mindsets a lot more, and I think that's really important. This is a slightly different question. What happens when we get to an age where there is there will be one or two things we can no longer do? And we may have wanted to do them, but just physically it's not gonna be possible, even if you know, with the best mind in the world, we we could do it mentally. How do we grieve things that didn't happen that maybe we still want?

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Okay, so if we wind it back a bit, yeah, um, a lot of people say, I'm gonna do all this stuff when I retire. Well, when I was married, from about 50 to 60, those 10 years, we were travelling two or three times a year, we were doing everything that most people would leave to retirement, and thank goodness we did, because you know, backpacking around India and staying in pound a night hotels, hotels, um I wouldn't have wanted to do that at this age, um, it would have been more a bit more luxury. Um, so it's so it's sometimes it's about front-ending and doing the things that you think I might not be able to do later, but then sometimes, you know, we have these health issues that come up that we can't have anticipated. And I write about that in in in one of my books because you know, the person who wants to do all these different things has to grieve and has to go through I can no longer do that, but then find something that they can do instead. And I think one of the people that I'd interviewed, um, he was gonna set up a business and do all sorts of things after retiring from his job at 60, but then his wife got uh you know a a a terminal illness, I think. And so then he got more involved in the caring community, and it was like this isn't the future I thought it was gonna be, but this is my future. And I I i it's not really making the best of it, but thinking that this is where I am now, and these are the things that I can do. And I thought that was a very a very wise thing to say, and you know, if you'd plan to, you know, motorbike round Asia and now because of you know your health, you can't do it anymore. Well, but what can you do? And you know, it's that there will be other things that we can do, but yeah, the whole thing about grieving, I think sometimes we do need to allow ourselves to be sad for the life that we can no longer have, but you don't want to be like Miss Haversham in great expectations and just dwell in it because it's like but what else what else could I do instead?

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Yeah, yeah, really wise words. Um I like this question. What would you um uh encourage women or anyone really to stop tolerating as they get older?

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Oh, this one, yes, yeah, other people the clearest thing is to have strong boundaries, so stop tolerating. If you're a capable woman like I am, people come to me with their problems, or they used to, because Denise will solve it for me. Yes, yeah, I can see no longer, no longer. It's like it's your problem, it's not my problem. I'm surrounded in Teflon, it can bounce off, and I will say things like that. And eventually, you know, they get I'm not I'm not taking it on. You know, I could take it on, I would have taken it on, but I think I think that's really important, it's about being clear on your boundaries. Um, and so if people are draining, it's like give them maybe ten minutes, and then it's like I really need to go now rather than you know carry on for half I'm thinking of phone calls, you know, maybe carrying on for half an hour. So it's like I've got 10 minutes, I've given you 10 minutes, and now I need to go. And my mother, you know, she is challenging, and I tend to have 10-minute phone calls now because there's only so much you can absorb. She's 93 and she, you know, she's you know, she's she you know, she's aging like a 93-year-old would, and she has concerns and everything. And I would do my best for 10 minutes, and then I'll think, can I give her another five minutes? And sometimes I can't, and it's like I need to go now, mum. I'm a bit drained, and I'm honest with it. Yes, I'm honest.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Yeah, I think that's important as well, and that comes back to your point about time, yes, and protecting your time, because if you uh so many people I think will get to the point where they have time and space and then take on other people's because if you don't have anything to fill it with, yeah, what do you end up doing? You take on everything else, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

And in retirement, what happens um often is people find out you're retired, so all the neighbours will put you down as the person to have parcels dropped off at because you're at home, and then if you've got grandchildren, which you're always available, you're always available to pick them up after school, and you can go and feed people's pets, and you can do this and the other. And there's there's somebody I know, and she said, I didn't work this hard when I was working. I just work for free now, and I talked to her about stronger boundaries, but it's a bit hard to try and set them in when all the neighbours are like expecting her to be like the every raw male drop-off point.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

That's terrible. Everyone else arranging your time, yeah. You know, when your time is more precious now. Yes. No, oh no, that's definitely a boundary, but thanks for the warning. Oh goodness me. No, that's a great one. Um, oh, I wish we could carry on chatting. It's so lovely to chat with you, but where can we find out more about you?

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Well, probably the best place is Substack. So it's Aging Reimagined and Substack. Um, and there's my website, Denise Taylor.co.uk, but really all my best writing is now over on Substack, and I write three times a week there. Um on deeper things towards towards the whole concept of of aging in a in a you know in a in a satisfied way. It's not about well, I guess it's embracing aging. Embracing aging, whatever that might be with you, with an individual.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Sort of on that note, it just puts you on the spot a little bit. Could you give us sort of either a you know, a really good top tip that we can take away to really think about age with that positive, vibrant mindset?

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Yeah, I think whatever age we are, this is this is how we are. But well actually, let's let me start again. I think the best thing to do is to be positive. A lot of people know about some research by Becca Levy um at Harvard, which is about if you have a positive frame of mind, you're likely to live for seven and a half years longer than not. So I think it's I had a really bad concussion about 18 months ago, um, and I fell over. I fell over. Um, but I didn't have a fall, you know. And I allowed allowed myself time time to recover from it. And I think often people will do things and they go like, oh, it's it's because of my age. Most of the time it's not, it's because you're like me, you weren't looking where you were going, you've just been a bit clumsy, you were multitasking. We really shouldn't look at our phones while we're walking with heavy things on our back and stuff like that. But I think I think if we think we're doing well and if we're happy with who we are, and not just looking in the mirror and going, oh, look at these lines and this, that, and the other. It's like but if you didn't have the lines, you'd look really weird. You'd got like, you know, these people that have got like weirdly smooth faces. Yeah. So I think that would be the key thing. Just accept that you're getting older because the alternative isn't great. And you know, and and do what you can with where you are, but don't have unrealistic expectations because we can't all run a marathon. I couldn't run a marathon when I was thirty. I can't run a marathon now, you know, unless you really want to go into training for one of these different things, and if you do, great, but mainly it's just keep moving, keep talking with people and keep smiling, I think.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

I love that. That's just perfect. Amazing. Thank you so much, Dr. Denise, and we will head over to Test the Trend. In the interests of following up, something that Dr. Denise said, Test the Trend this week is about finding what is a good day. Now, Jude, what um things in a day look good to you?

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Um funnily enough, it really aligns with what Dr. Denise was saying, and not just because she was saying it, so I love uh what I used to hate, and I've hated all my work in life well, ever since I was five and went to school, is that rush in the morning. I really hate it. Getting up, eating your breakfast, getting out the door, getting to wherever it is for nine o'clock, and you go and then and then you've got to work hard all day, you know. So that really nice, relaxing start to the day, which I'm fortunate to be able to have now for like three days a week. Yeah. Um, so that's a good day. Yeah. And having time to take my dog out and spend time with my dog, that's a really, really good day. So, yeah, I I I don't need very much in my life to make me happy.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

No, no, no, it's it and for me, it's like just feeling the sun, because we don't often get a lot of that, but I just like the sun, or when it's cold, having that smell of that really fresh winter sort of day. Those things, and then they're tiny things in a day. So this is where the challenge comes in. Everything that you do today, I want you to just recognise do I like this or don't I like this? And anything that you do like, just mentally clock it, have that post-it note there, and as you go through your days this week, think back to what has made it a good day. And it doesn't have to be 24-7. It's just those little moments in the day. If you stop and you recognise them, you might then the next day be able to think, Oh, I had that actually today. Oh, and this is nice as well. And there's it's sooner or later, if you keep recognising those moments, you might get to one day where actually everything is positive. So clock the good days and know what makes your day great. I could talk to Denise all day.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Oh, same here. She's so joyful. She's so joyful and she's so um sensible in a really, really fun way. Because she's just she says things you do think, well, yeah, obviously, but sometimes you just need to hear them.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Has she changed your opinion on age?

SPEAKER_00 39:03

That's a really big question. Yeah, I think that there are things that I might look forward to. So for uh similarly, I had a little bit of a sabbatical last year as well, as you know, and um so similar, and I didn't think I was gonna enjoy not working apart from here, but I loved not working apart from here, and obviously I've had to come back and take other jobs which which you know about, and and I enjoy it. It's not that I don't enjoy it, I do, but I really loved having all of that time to to have uh quality of life. That was it. So, yes, I'm looking forward to having that again, hopefully. What what about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 39:42

The thing that I really took from her is to live life in the present. You know, you've got to sit there, I've got to sit here and go, I am in a 50-year-old body. Yeah, that is what it is. There's you know, I can I I'm lucky, I've got good skin, I'm like I've got uh I I look younger than I am, but that doesn't stop the fact my body has been walking through this life wonderfully, thankfully, you know, for the last 50 years. Yeah, and and it has wear and tear and it has all of those things. And so to not put unfair expectations on it is one thing, and to not put unfair expectations on oh hello that's alright, that that's a three-hour thing. Um and to not put unfair expectations on myself is another, and and I think she's right in saying we can't necessarily go through life in exactly the same ways we did when we were 25 because it's just not physically possible.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

I can absolutely see she's right, and what you're saying is absolutely right still irritates me. I I get really annoyed, like why? Why does this have to happen to human beings, you know? Why, why?

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Well, talking of why though, and an and an aged thing is now at my age. I will go to uh my husband's work events and things like that. I will dress up in whatever, you know, it might be sleeveless, whatever, I will put a coat on. If it's in the middle of winter, I will put a coat on. And I'm standing there. It was this this was happened last um year. I'm in my coat and I'm alright, and I see all these 20-something year olds freezing without the you know, strappy dresses and sandals, high heels as well. So you know, I don't always do that.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

That is absolutely I used to do that, I used to go clubbing and what you know, and just I'm wearing a coat. It's so stupid.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

So that's something which I don't know what I've matured into. I'm just like, I can't be doing with being cold.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Well, I mean, if that's the thing that you take from being 50 and not 25, that actually I can wear a coat and I don't have to freeze to death, I'm all for getting older, seriously.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

I need to change your minds. Oh, but if all of us here have mental health matters, have a healthy week.