Exploring Desire

We’ve got our fabulous TEDx speaker and Sex Therapist Madina Demirbas back in the studio and today’s topic is desire…what and who are we attracted to, …why, and what can we do about it when it’s “off limits”, or perhaps considered “unusual” by general society?  It’s a fascinating, open, and ever helpful, discussion.

About the Show

Each Thursday at 4pm, we broadcast on LinkedIn and YouTube, with the podcast released on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more. 

Then on Friday at 8am (until the end of August), you’ll also receive a bonus podcast episode - a carefully selected recent conversation offering practical insight and timeless support.

Wherever you listen, you’re invited to pause, reflect, and reconnect: 

PODCAST: https://mentalhealthmatters.buzzsprout.com

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5dbYRwciNQ3c2hZwpsfxnNIvpijH4S2b 

Today's show is hosted by

Dr Audrey Tang www.draudreyt.com  @draudreyt

and Judith Crosier https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556005102240

Guest Expert

Madina Demirbas

https://www.linkedin.com/in/madina-demirbas/

https://www.instagram.com/madina_relationships_therapist/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Welcome to Mental Health Matters. I'm Dr. Audrey Tang.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

And I'm Judith Crozier.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

And this is the show where we talk about all things mental health and well-being, but we don't have any hot fixes or quick uh takes on everything. What we do is we have expert-led conversation. And today we are welcoming back TEDx speaker and sex therapist Medina Demeblah. Welcome back to Mental Health Latters.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Thank you. It's so good to be back. Thank you for inviting me again.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

It's always such a pleasure to have you because I really love the conversations we have with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

So do I, so do I. I learned together with you as well.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Which is exactly how it's supposed to be. Um today we want to talk about desire. Um we're gonna get into the actual questions in a minute, but just on that when I say the word desire, what does that conjure up?

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Oh, um I wasn't expecting that question. I should have been, because I always talk about it first. Um it so many things because it's on so many levels. But also the the first thing it conjured up was kind of like almost forbidden. Yes, that's what it came into my head.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

It's really funny because desire actually it's just I'd like something, but you're absolutely right. Same for me, it comes up with I want it but I can't have it. Yeah, it is restricted. Yeah, so what does that say about us?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yeah, it says about the culture, I think, as well. The West in Western culture, desire is I've noticed it's something that um it's almost like a marker of of your success. If you have a desire and you achieve it, then you're like you know the greatest person ever, whatever. Whereas in some cultures, having the you know, more if you if we move towards Eastern cultures and Buddhism, that the first thing that came to my mind is like, you know, having desires is great, you don't have to get attached to them. Like just observe that kind of thing. But that's you know, the first uh that's so much healthier.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

That's so much healthier. Yeah. You can have a desire from afar, but you don't necessarily have to have it. No, you don't have to get attached.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Uh you know, it doesn't have to, it doesn't have to evoke suffering. Desire is just a desire at the end of the day. Yeah. But we treat in the West it's more of like if I have a desire, I have to go for it and get it, and otherwise, who am I? And there's a lot of angst, isn't there, around it?

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Connect it to our identity, isn't it? Achieving that desire.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Self-realization and go for your dreams, go for your desires kind of thing. I I don't know, that's I like this.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Okay, right.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

It can be more more, I think it sorry, it can be more pleasureful and more resourceful than we think it is.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

It's like, you know, it doesn't have to be all about agony and it's so unless you watch Wuthering Heights, in which case that is a very bad example of healthy relationships. Absolutely. But let's talk about desire and relationships. So sometimes, and this is probably still now linking to that Western approach, that forbidden approach, naughty almost, um, desires that we have might actually go against uh even our values or who we are. So, how do we resolve that idea that that bad boy or bad girl or that character turns us on when actually that's that's not our identity?

SPEAKER_00 3:37

You know, the problem again, I think, with with Western culture, I don't mean to criticize, that's just you know, to give us a bit of a context, um, is that we we tend to think like we we we can decide about our desires, thoughts, uh, wants, needs only from our conscious parts of co-parts of mind, whereas we have a huge chunk of unconscious parts of our mind which dictate perhaps much more. And if you don't like the term unconscious, I would say biological, predetermined, and so on, we know from research, multiple researches from all over the world, that usually we choose our partners first by you know, somewhere in our brains, um which is not necessarily logical parts of our brains, and then we come up with the logical explanation because they have a good degree, they look good, and da-da-da. Very often it's you know, it's it's uh incredible how much smell, for example, determines our sense and so on. And then, you know, they they these were the uh double-blinded research done, and then people would come up with like all sorts of logical explanation, but that's I think you know, just to be aware of that our desires don't necessarily come from our conscious part, but our unconscious part, childhood, um you know all kinds of neurological um neurological brain connections and so on, but we will talk about it as well as well.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Yes, because I think that that is very, very true. The smell thing is so fascinating, but it's absolutely true as well, because yeah, you generally like what your partner smells like, even though you don't know that it consciously.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I think we we like to pride ourselves that we're so far away from the animal kingdom and we're so full of reason and logic and everything. We are, and we have the animal part as well, which you know the we have to keep in mind as well.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

So on that note, the animal or the instinctual part, um where does that attraction come from? You know, it's it that person or that dynamic that we like. Maybe you're attracted to the conflict or the drama, or and it's not necessarily that person, but that person seems to generate that drama or generate that the feeling, feeling.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah, yeah. It's it's usually both, we would say you would attract to the person and the dynamic that they bring. If we're talking about, you know, non-paras because parasocial, for example, relationship that we discussed is when you're attracted to somebody who doesn't even know that you exist. Yes, that's a different story. Very different, yeah, yeah. Uh which nevertheless exists quite quite often. But we're talking if we are attracted to a real person, then there is this dynamic, or our mind would come up with a fantasy about this dynamic that would turn us on. And uh it really, yeah, it's some some of it will be familiar to us, some of it will be filling up the gaps that we are perhaps having in in our current lives. But yeah, that's that's something to consider as well.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

I just want to interrupt with just with the parasocial because this happened to in a conversation I had with the client this week, they were talking about the devil wears Prada too, and they really like Emily Blunt, and so they watched it because of Emily Blunt, and she played such a revolting character, they just had to keep reminding themselves she was Mary Poppins, she was just an actress. I do like the actress, but they were so just because of the character that they they watched her play, they were suddenly, oh my gosh, which is yeah, which is normal.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

I think that's the whole art of cinematography to evoke the feelings to non-existent people, and you know, uh as long as we are aware of that. The awareness, the awareness is so important. For me, it was for example in Game of Thrones, you know, all the Lannister family. Like, I hated that so bad. But I had to remind myself that this is just you know the actors and book characters, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

Yes, that's so interesting. I loved them. I'm dressed up as Destiny.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Okay, that's a whole nother show. I think I'm gonna have to watch it now to find out who these people are. Absolutely brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just shows what good actors they are. Same for Emily Blunt. Like yes, I would watch it just for her because she's brilliant. Um, so yeah. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 8:10

And that conversation you have to have in your head to be aware of it, especially with parasocial relationships, because Emily Blunt doesn't know they exist, bless it. And she won't care. Well, no, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

But she can give if you have certain feelings that have been evoked, she could be a key to for you to understand more about yourself. Yes, whatever that was with Lenniston family, right? Uh or for me, you know, if I was hating them, what what is it about me that I'm I'm suppressing in me, or perhaps don't want to see all kinds of projections and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

This allowed me to speak more about the Mary Poppins aspect of Emily Blunt, because it then allowed this bigger conversation about family and desire and next steps kind of thing. So it was a very interesting conversation. So it did actually open the conversation up.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

That's so interesting. And kind of on the same lines then. So why do some people uh desire people, other people that would be very, very unhealthy for them? I mean, I can relate.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Yes. Well, I think very often our brain confuses familiarity with safety just because we might have grown up in and most of us did, you know, in not very stable and rather chaotic chaotic uh circumstances, then whether we want or not, we're searching for it because this is what we know best. This is we know how to survive. And then when I worked with clients, for example, they would find they would even form healthy relationships, but then they would say they would describe them as boring. Like everything is fine, but it's just too good, and then they you know they're almost itching like for some kind of drama. And and only after like years and years of therapy they get to find that they still need this drama, and they will find it elsewhere, hopefully in a more healthy way, you know, they would channel it in in in a different so I don't know if you've been watching Maths Australia.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

No, I haven't. So it's just it's just finished, I think. I haven't seen the last couple of episodes, but that exactly happened with one of the brides. She's like, oh chaotic, and she had the most the nicest guy, the most stable guy. Yeah, he thought the world of her, but she said halfway through, you know, it's boring. Yes, like that he has no drama. And she couldn't see that he was perfect for her.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Yeah. And and for in re in the research in the UK especially, we see this discrepancy, particularly between people are informed now what kind of relationship they should be having, what kind of people they should be attracted to, right? So they know very well what they should be doing, and then there is this wild part, you know, when they are attracted to completely wrong people, and you know, therapy hopefully, not therapy but therapeutic experiences, which can be all kinds of experience, yoga and stuff like that. Um it tries to merge possibly these two worlds between should and reality, and or at least do some kind of dance between them. That's it's not easy, it's uh believe me.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

No, it isn't, because on the one hand you can say, well, maybe it's time to find that excitement, that drama in a different aspect of your life, but maybe that's not what you're used to, or that's not what you're willing to go for.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Well, you need to be supported in it, you need to make sense because you know it's very easy to shame yourself into like why do I want this all this bad people and bad relationships? Yeah, uh, you know, but that won't get you far, like somebody's presence, constant presence who supports you, understand you, because the key, the first key is to try to make sense and understand where does this beautiful dynamic come from? Why am I possibly attracted to it? And and I can totally relate to that as well when you know as a psychologist, especially you be like, This is wrong, this is traumatic. I don't want to re-traumatize myself, and then you find yourself with before it becomes traumatic. Yeah, it's like, what if this time I'm gonna get it better? And then yeah, you know.

unknown 12:26

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

That's true. So I guess this bride, she needs she needs to recognise that there's an issue about the fact that she needs somebody like her to cause drama to to stimulate her, you know. Um and that's yeah, that's where she is, but luckily, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

You can always create drama with a more sensitive.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

In a different way, in a more healthy way, yeah, exactly right. So you touched on child childhood before. So is there a is there uh a direct link between childhood and desire, or is it more a link between childhood and the pattern that we fall into? Um so that we keep finding the same people that we shouldn't be with, but we desire the stability.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

I think it's it's much more complex than just childhood. Definitely there is a link, there's especially when it comes to attachment styles. There is a link, there's a clear link between childhood experiences and um adult expectations from relationships as well as emotional regulation. We can see that. And yet I don't want it to sound like this is now your destiny. No, uh, we we know that people can heal from all kinds of difficult childhood experiences with the proper support, uh with the friendships, for example, with a certain life experience, and and you just never know, you know, how it's still just at the verge of trying to understand what actually brings the makes people resilient in terms of childhood traumas. Because we know examples, people who you know went through all kinds of horrific, horrific childhood were able to an extent to heal themselves and build healthy relationships and enjoy it and pass it on to the you know uh if they have children, and then we also know uh the people who had more or less healthy upbringing with loving parents and everything you could ask for, and then they're struggling in the relationship victim as well. So I wouldn't, you know, necessarily like put a verdict over like a bad childhood, but but there is there is a link, and the more you become aware, then the more you're asking for help, and you're uh you're actually searching for like healing experiences, you will be drawn to your trauma trauma and stuff like that, you know, to the wrong, wrong excitement. And along the way, you would find ways uh to heal, you would find people, experiences, places, you know.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

I think what I do notice at the moment, and I don't know whether you have or whether this is just maybe it's just me, but I seem to see a lot of people who are working towards healing experiences, at least that's the claim. They want to, you know, they they they want to heal from the trauma, but they seem to be they they've caught themselves in a loop that they like revisiting these old places, and they're so they're very able to talk about what they don't like and what they don't want, and so on, but there's no action being taken to actually seek that healing experience or become that person who can heal. It's I don't think it's just there's a mental barrier up there, it's almost that by circling in this loop of trauma.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

You create a different identity now, you're now feeling entitled to all kinds of things. Yes, almost yeah, yeah, so it can create, you know, it's it's just a different side of the coin, probably that would isolate you and keep you further down. I I yeah. It's like um I definitely know people. They're saying they want to heal.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

They're saying they want and they're going to therapy, yeah. They're kind of going over the same ground.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Yeah, and then they're no further on than 30 years later.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

And it depends, you know, on on on the on the time. Some people just need more time. That's the first thing that came to my mind, and you have to just brace yourself and wait till they are actually ready to take action. Uh depends on the therapist. For example, from day one in my practice, I try to encourage you know people to go further because at the you know further like take this experience elsewhere. Because at the end of the day, it's just one-to-one, and there's a reason why we we're talking about community and village and all of that. And with the isolation, uh, there's only so much that one therapist can do. So I always try to like encourage, you know, to to to take it further with with groups and with similar and interests and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

It can be do you think they might feel safe in that place? Oh, yeah, and that's why they don't want to change totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

And you can almost see it because it's almost you give some ideas and support of what they can do to take it outside, and then they might have done that, but then there's a new trauma related to the old trauma, but isn't the old trauma that then comes out. Now, I fully understand that one thing can trigger another thing. I I absolutely get that, but I do think there is a safety or a I don't know what the word is, an indulgence is the word actually I'm looking for. Of but I like how this feels yes, you know, back to desire. Yes, I like I like feeling that I have problems. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Which is probably very unfair of me, but no, but I know people who who are in that space, and so it you can see it, you can see that that does happen.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Yeah, I'm just I I I definitely know people's button. Um make me think, you know, what what is there to to to gain? What does it serve you when you are isolating yourself in this yeah, it's a good question because you I think that is the question.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

I think that probably is the question. So just on that note, if you if anything resonates, you know, maybe it is a qu a case of asking yourself, well, how does this serve you? And that answer will will hopefully unlock newer doors, or or find a pathway to it.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, from like a short note from personal experience, I was really like attached for for a while. Like, my parents should admit that they've done the wrong thing. And you know, because I've I've spent so many years trying to understand I I always thought there's something wrong with me, and then I thought, you know, it's the environment and so. So when I faced them, when I asked them to face the da da da da da da da with the list of all the things, and they were like, um no. They just they just they didn't want to, they were not ready for whatever reason. Maybe it's the way I present it, doesn't matter. But as a result, I was like, but they should, they should they shouldn't be sorry, but at least acknowledge. And then one wise friend of mine who's never been to therapy for you know, and she was like, But what what do you think you will gain as a result? If they finally tell you, yes, we've done the wrong thing, yes, we're deeply, deeply sorry, please forgive us. How will we change your current life now? And I'm like, um I don't think it's gonna drastically change anything, but you can get addicted, you know. It's it's a lot of things, it's this ego and this feeling of entitlement and so on and so forth. But yeah, once I realized with this, you know, that I'm not gonna gain much because my life is quite established right now, and so on, it it helped me to let go.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

I would say it's less about ego and entitlement, more about fairness. You know, it's it's the it would be the fair thing in that.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

It would be, and then you cannot control, you know, you cannot control the you I I tried my best to explain the way I've been hurt and so on and so forth, but you know, it doesn't it sometimes people are not ready to admit it and there's nothing you can do and then it's the other person, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and then you go, you you pay another three sessions to live through helplessness, which you know you experience so much often.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

But your friend is very wise. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

She is.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

This is how complex desire actually is. Uh so hold I thought we're keeping Medina and we'll be back after a clip from the last time Medina was on our show.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

This is one of the very interesting topics about flirting and whether it is actually harmful or harmless and even helpful for sexual life, it will vary. Uh the thing about long-term couples that we know for sure that this spark on this desire to flirt fades over time, and then uh you need to find other sort of sources of inspiration. Now, if you are going out somewhere flirting, knowing what you want, that you are you're you're not like looking testing the water, but you are re redevelop re-establishing your sense of of who you are outside of this marriage because this is important. After a while, we tend to blend with our partner and see ourselves only as wife or husband. And this is great for intimacy and for friendship and being close. But if you want to sparkle that part, the sexual part, you need to feel yourself separate from your from your partner. Yeah, and flirting is a good way. It's like, oh, they're interested. Good to know. All right, I come back. Yeah, um but it's of course, I mean, but I believe to to answer shortly, if you suppress this desire to flirt and social. Test the water and see for yourself, it will burst out on you. And that's when we have the you know the extramarital affairs. That I don't know how it happened, I don't I didn't see it coming. And so I I suggest like the small dosages. Um if you're you if you feel like it, if you're inclined to flirt. If you're a flirtatious person, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

Yeah, you can't then suppress that.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

No, and so and some people flirt with their friends, and there's absolutely nothing in it. Um it's I suppose it's the intention behind it, like you say. It's a really difficult one. Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, where we're having, as always, a really interesting conversation with Medina um about desire, and it's kind of leading in all different directions. It's it's really really interesting. So um talking about something that uh you mentioned before, how can we not judge ourselves for who or what we desire and you know what might turn us on?

SPEAKER_00 23:07

I think first if we start with curiosity, with uh viewing the desire and fantasy for that matter as um a key to the unconsciousness, as a key to understanding ourselves more and our needs. At the end of the day, the desire is packed in like the sexy way, like I'm an adult having a desire, but behind it, there's always there's usually um um an emotional need like to be seen, to be understood, validated, to be liberated, whatever that is, you know. So desire can be that key. If you view it this way, I know it's uh hard sometimes, but if you would be like a detective, you know, who's like trying to understand, connect the dots rather than a judge who's like this it's wrong, you go to jail. I really like that. That's the first thing that came to my mind. And secondly, again from research, we know that people desire things that normally they wouldn't do in real life. This is some this is a space where you know, at least this space where you can feel freedom that we don't necessarily have. It's a it's it's a it's a necessary function to have desires and fantasies and sexual and non-sexual as well. Uh so entering the space can be scary, but it's also you have to understand this is evolutionary, something that we need to switch off from you know daily responsibilities and so on. Secondly, I would suggest that you know you can validate the feeling, the desire, but you don't it doesn't mean that you validate the behavior that will come after this uh because obviously we want to you know to have responsibility over this and so on. But acknowledging the desire, the the more familiar you are with this, some of them could be you know scary and stuff, but the more familiar you are, the more choice you have over it. What do I want? Do I want to keep it just as a desire? You know, do I want to go for it actually? Like, you know, in Western culture, like do I want to achieve this goal? Or maybe just having it also serves just you know helps me to get through the day or whatever. Uh or do I just, you know, it doesn't serve me anymore and I can switch to another desire. But uh but if we are suppressing, and most of us do, because that's the way we've been conditioned in in in our cultures, if we are suppressing it, then we feel shame. And the more we feel shame, the more distressed we are. And then the whole desire is the is causing us less trouble than the distress around us, you know. And but of course it's easier said than done. Um you know, maybe just writing it down and maybe even asking Church Gibbt for that matter, what does it tell about me kind of thing? Like this isn't this is what I'm desiring, no, no, you know how to go. But and then if you find yourself struggling, that obviously you know you can I think that's how you know somebody it's really interesting because I think you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Behind the desire is a need, and a need is much more childish need, very often, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

But I don't I don't like to call it childish, but like emotional.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Emotional need, and that's a lot softer and sadder actually in some ways, lonier, and and that need probably in some ways does need to be addressed, and once you address that need, that desire probably in some ways goes away or it becomes less prominent, yeah. But it is about finding out the need, it's is it's the detective. I love that. Yes, so do I absolutely brilliant. Love that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

So um maybe in the fantasy world or as you're talking about, can somebody be attracted to something or someone else that they wouldn't normally be in in the real world or in real life?

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Yeah, definitely. You know, it's it's again it's a question of do you have to have it?

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Or you know, maybe the desire itself serves its purpose because this is rather a capitalistic view of the things. You're gonna be happy once you reach certain things. Yes. Once then you'll be successful and then you will be happy, whatever that means. But I'm I'm here to invite you to, you know, to to to question that. I'm not saying this is wrong, but so many things. When I had clients, you know, they would reach whatever they wanted to reach, and they're like, um So where um where am I supposed to be like how should I feel now? You know, some things are meant to be the driving force in that sense, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

So they they achieved what they thought they wanted and then didn't really want it when they got it.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, or it it wasn't as bright as colourful as they thought. And sometimes it will be, but it's it's so much more nuanced. And and again, the culture tells us go for it till the end, get it, you know, be the winner, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

I think that it links to my next question, but it it is about separating desire as desire and desire from a goal. Because if we turn desire into a goal, then it kind of messes everything else up, actually, which then relates to my next question, which is what conversations about desire are couples or should couples be having that they're not actually having, and I think one of them really is desire is just desire, it doesn't have to be achieved.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

It doesn't have to be achieved. We also know from research that desire changes, there's no way the level, intensity, and the things that evoke desire stay the same, and very often it's rugged under the carpet. Um, but at the end of the day, this is something to be aware of. We know again from research that women uh get bored of sexual life much faster in heterosexual monogamous relationships than men, and this is something to discuss as well. You know, how can we change, restructure, redo some some some things are incompatible, but once you address them uh early on, like renegotiating this whole area, which can be tricky, um, but you know, there are apps now that pretty good ones.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

There is also sex therapists and couples therapists which help to to make sense uh of it to have that conversation because also this and this is comes from speaking to Professor Sharon Hinschliff, who talks about sexual intimacy through the lifespan. But desire can change just just because your hormones have changed and you're absolutely it goes with age kind of thing, and it's not that you don't desire your partner, it's just your body doesn't feel like yours anymore, and it's all there's a lot of other stuff that's that's wrapped up in one word, which probably shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah, it's it's quite dynamic and quite yeah, so interesting.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

So it's kind of related to that as well. Is there a of course there is, I suppose, a cost of hiding desire from your partner, and I think let's take this in two ways. Um if you really desire other people, for example, uh, does it depend on whether you're willing to act on that or not? Or you know, is is there merit in speaking to your partner about this?

SPEAKER_00 30:30

It's tricky, right? It's tricky, it's tricky. Again, let's get back to research. Because you know, a lot of couples now that we live longer, they're asking themselves, is that all there is? Like, so I'm with this, you know, with all the respect, like, is this what I'm getting to the end on that? And we know that uh people who score highly on social sexuality, I explain what it is, tend to be happier in open relationships. Now, social sexuality is your ability to engage into sexual activity without necessarily being intimate, just like that, right? Some people would score high in it, and they would probably be less satisfied. I don't like the word happy, but they would be less satisfied in their committed religion. They would have a lot of desire which is like unfulfilled and is about sexual desire. And then you need, you know, you need to test yourself and then not weaponize it, but you know, work around it perhaps. Um so that would that that would be something that that that that's like you've you just brought up a whole new topic which is weaponizing. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's like I'm a you know, I have so many couples where the partners would say, but I'm I'm I'm a sex addict, or I have a lot of sexual, what should I do? And then the other person always feels not enough, and then you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

And it is about I mean, uh in that case, would you say people sometimes just are not compatible over time, yeah. Over time.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah, that that can happen as well.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Yeah. Because we see it, we see it in research at the moment, they call it, was it silver divorces? Now people are getting to the stage where children have left home and they've kind of gone, hmm.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah. Now what?

SPEAKER_03 32:18

It's the siege.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, you know, yeah. But but then again, this is cultural, this is consumerist approach to this, right? Our ancestors, or even our parents, my parents at least, wouldn't consider that because marriage is not for being happy. I mean, come on. Marriage is it's not for love and romance. This is like a business you that you do together because it makes sense. It's like I I remember, you know, my brother asked, Do you think our parents are happy with each other? And I'm like, Do you think it occurs to them, you know, to even ask this question? And it's cut it's cultural, right? It was it was it just started, yes, with certain respect, feelings, and whatever, but it was never at the center. Whereas now people want to be happy, right? They want to be sexually you know satisfied to the fullest. Because this is what capitalism is selling to us, like it should be the best of the best of the best. Yes, they want to be intellectually compatible, they want to do finances, they want to raise children, they want to be a power couple. Uh, and the marriage has to be now coming back to the self-realization, marriage has to be the like continuous the expression of their identity. And it's just one person, you know, like barely making it through the day, and then so many things are are so many expectations from one person, from two, right? So they expect them from themselves as well. And obviously, again, we know from research, those couples who do it, they do it very well. We know, you know, answering the questions are the couples happier now than they were in previous generations. Those who make it, who go through this hell, because it is hell, you know, a lot of work to do together, they enjoy it. But but those who don't, you know, they end up with broken lives for for the rest of their lives because of the desire not meeting. Desire, and now not only desire, it has to be emotional compatibility, intellectual, financial, and you know, so many things that were provided before just by community. Nobody thought about like being happy with you. Oh no!

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Keep Medina and we'll be back after a clip from the last time she was on the show.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Before we jump in, I would like to thank you again for inviting me and for talking about the subjects which are so under talked, and the more we have healthy conversations about fetish, about sexual fantasies, whatever, today we're gonna discuss about the healthier relationships people will have, I believe.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Yes, because we're not hiding all of this.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Yeah, yeah, because in the UK and and in most parts of the world, it's still a topic which is full of shame and guilt and misunderstanding and confusion and so on.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Welcome back to Mental Health Matters. This is such a mind-blowing conversation we just left on the bombshell, Medina, of we never thought about being happy in relationships, and actually, but you're right, you are absolutely right, and now of course, happiness is the pinnacle of everything. Yeah, you know, our whole life has to be centered around being happy, which I think can be a bit unhealthy as well. But so when we come to talking about desire, and I think communication is the right place to start, if we are exploring desire safely and honestly and openly and all of those things, um, how do we bring in, and this is this is a personal question, the physical changes as well. Because I know, as much as I would love to desire, you know, and be designed by loads of different people, my body is not capable of that. You know, my my body doesn't actually feel that desire, it doesn't want that. I mean, I'm on HRT now, which is which is helping a lot. Yeah, but there's a physical aspect where you can you mentally you might think it's a nice idea, but physically Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'd rather watch Eurovision, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, again, coming back to this whole social media pressure to be ever desirable, desired, desiring, all at the peak of your, you know, prime, all that kind of stuff, but just disregards reality. We can't be like that all the time. I think the there are certain, you know, there are there are certain accounts where that they would, you know, assert the reality, you know, this is what is behind the scenes and stuff, but they're not as popular as the ones who are selling you the ideas, you can do this, look, I've built my business, da da da da da new country. Um also my relationship is great.

SPEAKER_03 37:13

And and you saw I know I do watch these and I kind of go, yeah, if you're over fifty, I don't know how true all of this actually is.

unknown 37:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Because your body's changed. It it did. Sorry, that's not the curse of doom on anyone that's under 50, but you know, just wait.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And this is you know, the communication, I think that there is a lot now done, a lot of topics are raised around this. And remember, I discussed the book uh Want by Gillian Anderson. Yes, that's a very good book. Now they're going this to the second one, I think want more or something like that. But there they discuss precisely that as well, the woman's desire after during you know, certain years and how it affects, and and it's it's also about the emotional desires behind the sexual ones and how they have changed and people grieve over certain things or they look forward. You know, I'm I'm glad that it's getting discussed more and more, but not enough definitely.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

Yes, agreed, agreed. So, how do you remove shame when it comes to discussing desires with partners in particular? So, for example, you know, you you've got a couple and one of them is saying they desire someone else, and of course now the other person's feeling absolutely awful that they can't be all of those things, and there's a lot of shame and judgment we place on ourselves as well. If you're that person who thinks I can't but I can't be that.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

I think the the first antidote to shame is probably acknowledging it and like saying like I think it's I feel a lot of shame around it, and you know, because shame is very isolating, and you don't want to stay by yourself and and and preparing somebody like there's some kind of information that I want to to to share, but I feel a lot of shame that helps to you know decrease the anxiety around it and and to connect because the the best antidote to shame is like feeling connected to somebody, feeling understood. That's easier said than done. If your partner tells you, like, oh, I really desire somebody else, what should I do? Sure, yeah, sure, honey. I'm so glad you told me. Yeah, uh as they say, the this the truth will set you free, but first it will upset you. Uh and again, a lot of couples would, especially long-term couples, they would have this inner resource to restructure and find their own ways of dealing with it. Uh and we also know that a lot of couples like prefer to do the same thing because you know, for whatever reason, we we we want to to do as we're always doing out of fear that you know this balance is gonna be broken and we don't want to broke it's already broken if you know. But um so yeah, a lot of couples would have their own resource to tackle this this information, to um work around it and and and you know find their own ways that would work for them.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

So can I just ask a question about that then? So if you if you're one half of a couple and you do desire somebody else but you don't want to act on it, would you still um advocate telling your partner then? For what? That's what I mean. What you want to gain? Yeah, why why so why would you?

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Why would you? It's not that you know hide it. Yeah. As long as you acknowledge this, obviously, sometimes the feeling is so big, yeah, right? It's hard to keep it inside. Yeah. You're almost like infatuated, and then like, what do I do? And you know, depends really what you want to get out of it. So that your partner does what? Support you? Like, I'm so happy for you that you're not. But that's what I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

I was thinking, honestly, no, you wouldn't. You wouldn't, unless you wanted to act on it and you wanted to work your way through that. There wouldn't be much.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

There would still it would still help to find a space where you can share it because like sometimes it's much bigger than you. You're absolutely, you know, overtaken by it. And and and probably it really depends on on the relationship. Probably that your partner is not the person that you would be the first, let's say, the first source. Maybe like after after you know, the the the it it the whole excitement falls down a bit if you want to get something out of it, or again, after you make sense of it, like ah, there's this desire, and again, what is behind this desire? So to be seen, to be free, to surrender, to control, to uh the need to be validated and so on. After you make sense, maybe you can bring it along this bit, like I think I need uh this and this need is kind of lacking. Do you think we can work around it? We know that you know the couples who uh have the capacity, have the ability to communicate openly, tend to have to be more satisfied with their relationships, right? Uh the way you communicate, obviously, how you say sometimes just saying it out loud, you know, releases the tension inside you. Yeah, so it's not easy.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

So I was just thinking that it might be something that you would then on your own get counselling for and then identify the need behind the design and then have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

That's something you could do with your with your partner. But even then your partner, because I I cannot give it to you. This is all you this is all idea at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Make informed choice.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

So so yeah, so I think that kind of relates to to the next question, which is what would change then if people were really honest about who or what they desired?

SPEAKER_00 43:08

I would have no job. I would have no job. And so uh the the people working for dating apps, you know, that uh Tinder, for example, uh users, at least one-third of them in the UK are already in relationships or in some countries, yes, marriage and stuff. Yeah, so that shows that there are desires which are not fulfilled and that they're not told. They're not necessarily, I don't know, out of this one-third, how open are they with their partners that they are on the dating apps, right? There are too many jewels around you know, friends finding out and telling you that your partner is there. However, yeah, so you would make me bankrupt. You would make dating apps bankrupt. But on a serious note, obviously it would, you know, in order to have these conversations. You need to have safety. And safety doesn't come just by itself, you know, just because you love each other, it has to be built, the trust and so on. And then yeah, it would, you know, it would make things probably easier. I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

Yeah, it's that openness and honesty, isn't it, in so many ways, but also the way in which you have the conversation that can make a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

It it does, like, you know, we have this this fantasy that people in polyamorous, for example, relationships that we discussed, that they're having the time of their life and they're enjoying it all, and then very often they would say, like, it's you know, my life is different than it used to be, but it's not easier for sure. You know, it requires a lot of communication, logistics, and so on and so forth. So it's not like I'm, you know, talking you out of it, but something that the people barely consider. So that's the same thing with desire. Like, are you ready to take responsibility?

SPEAKER_03 44:56

You know, throw the bomb and then like, oh, I desire so many people, and then you know it is responsibility, design the responsibility for any outcome that goes with it, if desire has to have an outcome.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Yeah, exactly. Which it doesn't always be. It doesn't have to. Sometimes desire can be just a driving force, and we can see this in in Shakespeare's, you know, just recently because I was reading about Shakespeare and then and watching and mentor strat, whatever they're doing, how much things how many masterpieces were born out of the desire rather than having sometimes it can just be a daydream, just kind of get you through your day as well, you know?

SPEAKER_02 45:40

It could just sort of add a little bit of interest, I guess. Life, yeah. Yeah, life. Um so interesting. Oh, we could talk about this all day. Sadly, we have to finish. Um, where can we find out more about you?

SPEAKER_00 45:57

So uh recently I've I've updated my website, medinademirbarch.com. It made it much easier to navigate to read um my articles or watch the videos and so on. Medinademirbosch.com. And then you can also find me on um Instagram. Uh it's Medina Relationships Therapist, and on LinkedIn as well. It's Medina Demirbosch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

Amazing. We are gonna keep keep you and we will head over to test the trend. I'm gonna set our lovely guest Medina and uh co-host Jude this particular challenge on desire. So, and you can do this at home if you if you'd like to think about this particular prompt. Um, think about somebody you find attractive. They can be a real person, they can be you don't need to say who they are, they can be a character on television, whatever it is. So just make sure you've got that in your mind. What is it about them that you find so attractive? Now, without saying who it is, you don't have to say who it is, but can you tell me what it is about them that is attractive? It's this this person is Psycho first. Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

They are exceedingly good at what they do.

SPEAKER_03 47:17

Okay, alright. So talent, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Being seen, uh being I I feel seen validated, I feel special.

SPEAKER_03 47:28

Like that, I like that. And in my case, I think I find them very powerful.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

Powerful, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:34

Yeah, I find that very that that particular thing. Right. Now think of somebody who is, you know, just perfect on paper, just absolutely perfect, doesn't quite generate that same feeling. What's missing? That's the question. It's what the question is, what is missing? So we've got what it is we uh have find quite attractive. This s this other person, perfect on paper, what's missing? What is it that you're thinking, ah, just if they just had or courage.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

I like that for me, chemistry.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Ah, and mine is just boring, which is I know some of the just that's it, you know. Um now what again, this is the detective aspect of it, is what do those two things, when you put those together, say that perhaps you might be looking for that is currently lacking in your life? So if you put together courage and being seen and feeling special, um if you put together talent, um sorry, what was the thing that was missing? Yes, talent and chemistry, so what are you missing there? Yeah, and um mine is uh power and finding boredom. So if I sort of reflect on what that could be saying, is I know what I like is someone else to take control because I'm in control everything I do, everything I do, I am in control, whether I'm teaching, running the show, I am in control, and I miss that feel and and and when it comes to boredom, it's that whole kind of you can decide. You you why don't you decide for once? I do not want to decide all the time. So for me, that's what I know I look for and need to find spaces where I cannot be in control, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

So to say, yeah. So you want somebody to just take it all off you.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

And that's not actually when I then put it that into my relationships, anything to do with relationships. No, it's actually everything to do with just finding something that I can do where I can just have a break.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Right, yeah. Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

So that would be my so just in terms of what that brings out for you.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Courage, yeah, is that I I can resonate with with the courage. Yeah. Um that I I yeah, I would need more, I would need spaces to build up my courage. I think yeah, some somewhere where I would yeah kind of feed myself with courage. I don't I don't know. Like courage comes, it's not from not being afraid. Courage is not it's not not being afraid. Courage being afraid and doing it. And doing it. Yeah, risking it. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 50:32

So maybe that's yeah, that's the space to risk, which is a safe one.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Yeah, yeah, if if or to you know to remind probably myself of you know the the the the previous educated risks that I've done and and then succeeded.

SPEAKER_03 50:49

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

And then feeling special is it a special scene, whatever that is. As a result of taking that educated risk. Oh exciting. So interesting.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

And I guess mine then, I'm just trying to think then how that would relate. So I suppose the talent thing, i you know, I can see that I'm always striving to be the best at what I do. Maybe that's where that comes from. And the chemistry thing, I guess that can then maybe excitement. Maybe I need excitement in my life. Being on fire.

SPEAKER_03 51:19

Yes, exactly that. But maybe what you're being good at and what you're striving for isn't exciting you.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Well, yes, may I make it?

SPEAKER_03 51:28

So you need to find the things that you know not again.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

You just find it, you know, it's like this is what like I I've I've been I can share this because like I've been striving to be couples therapists, and I sex therapists, and then you're like, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

What else can I do?

SPEAKER_00 51:48

What else can I do? And I do I started yoga. I'm pretty sure after teaching, and I start teaching yoga now. After that, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get bored of that as well, and then you have to find another exciting thing, another because lives are long now. I mean, thank God, but yeah. Yeah, and we have the luxury to to think about what is exciting us, it's not everywhere in the world.

SPEAKER_03 52:10

I think that brings us to that challenge for this week is to have a think about what those desires are actually telling you, and then think about what you can do in your life. That doesn't mean changing everything, no, just takes a step to fulfilling or feeling feeling fulfilled in what it is you desire. What a conversation, Medina. It's always such a pleasure to have you on the show, and we are looking forward to having you back next week because we are going to be talking about power and control next week. We we love having you on because it's it's brilliant. Jude, what have you taken from today? There's so much.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

There's so much, but I think the standout thing for me is that you can desire something without wanting to have it. Yes. So yeah, yeah, and and that's that's enough. You know, I'm I'm married now, I'm happily married, you know, obviously ups and downs, like anyone. But you know, before I might have had long-term relationships, but desired someone else and worried about that, and I never cheated, never did anything about it, but I worried about the fact that hang on, I'm with this person who's lovely. What am I doing wanting that person? So actually, it's taken that kind of the worry out of it.

SPEAKER_03 53:28

That's interesting actually, because when I think back, yes, I I was in a similar and you shame yourself. Yeah, yeah. Because you think, you know, even if you don't act on it, you think I shouldn't even be having these thoughts. It's just a thought.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

What kind of what kind of person I am? Yeah. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

So I think that the taking away the shame has been really, really helpful. But also your point about how behind every desire is an emotional need that hasn't been met, is just painful and beautiful at the same time. Those are the things I will take away. So um, for you, Medina, what would you say one thing that we could do to just shift our mindset a little bit about desire, you know, to just find a healthier approach to if possible, treat desire as your friend.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

I mean, desire is a good friend, but a bad boss, I would say. I love that. You know, if you can if you can get to learn more about it, get curious, like we said earlier, then you have much more chances to align your life along with it rather than being suddenly overtaken by it and then finding your life oh falling, you know, not necessarily falling apart, but getting out of control.

SPEAKER_03 54:44

Brilliant. From all of us here at Mental Health Matters, have a healthy week.