Mental Health Matters
Mental Health Matters is back — now as a podcast from Feb 2026.
Due to popular demand, our TV show returns in audio form, bringing powerful conversations about mental health and wellbeing straight to your ears. Created and hosted by psychologist Dr Audrey Tang, and expanding on her Retrain Your Brain and The Wellbeing Lounge podcasts, Mental Health Matters goes beyond surface-level talk to deliver insight that’s practical, human, and genuinely transformative.
Each episode features expert-led conversations and reflections with practitioners at the top of their field, alongside real lived experiences that inform, connect, and motivate. Expect evidence-based tools, fresh perspectives, and honest dialogue designed to help you understand your mind...and use it better.
Recently shortlisted in the WRPN Webisode Competition, the show is produced by our award-winning studio recognised with the E2 Media Award of Excellence for its integrity and commitment to raising awareness in the field of wellbeing.
Real conversations. Trusted expertise. Making Mental Health support truly Matter.
Mental Health Matters
Power, Control, Influence and Sex
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It’s a double with TEDx speaker and Sex Therapist Madina Demirbas – so check out last week’s discussion on “Desire” as well if you can’t get enough of our fabulous guest!! This week we look at how Sex, Power, Control and Influence are related and utilised – in both healthy and unhealthy ways.
About the Show
Each Thursday at 4pm, we broadcast on LinkedIn and YouTube, with the podcast released on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more.
Then on Friday at 8am (until the end of August), you’ll also receive a bonus podcast episode - a carefully selected recent conversation offering practical insight and timeless support.
Wherever you listen, you’re invited to pause, reflect, and reconnect:
PODCAST: https://mentalhealthmatters.buzzsprout.com
YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5dbYRwciNQ3c2hZwpsfxnNIvpijH4S2b
Today's show is hosted by
Dr Audrey Tang www.draudreyt.com @draudreyt
and Judith Crosier https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556005102240
Guest Expert
Madina Demirbas
Welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr. Audrey Tang and me Judith Crozier. And this week we are joined again by our fabulous TEDx speaker and sex therapist, Medina Demivar. Welcome to Mental Health Matters.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, it's so good to be back always.
SPEAKER_03We love conversations with you because it goes in directions that we never even thought about, but neither do I. Always in such depth and with such knowledge. And you know, you have a vast wealth of experience as well, which we are grateful to you for sharing. And so I thought we'd throw you in with a kind of dark topic in some ways, and that is the topic of power. Um power is one of those interesting things. Because in relationships, it can signal quite nefarious, devious things where there's a power imbalance, and you know, someone's abusing their power, and it can be extremely unhealthy, but it can also, in other contexts, be incredibly sexy, and you know, you want to surrender to the power, liberating. Yes, yes, you surrender to the power or the fantasies where you get to be in charge and those sorts of things. So that's I guess that's the first question is a bit like last week when we talked about desire. When I say power, you know, good or bad, what does that say to you? What does that what does that conjure up for you?
SPEAKER_02Power, it's funny because what it conjures up is um sometimes I'm watching a drama or you know, a crime drama or something on TV with my husband with Simon, and um I'll say, What what do they see in them? Because I don't get it. Simon's answer is always just that it's it's the power.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I don't power does nothing really for me, not not pure power alone. No, it's got to have money. But no, so I don't get it, but I know that it's a massive attraction for so many people. So personally, it doesn't really do anything for me. And Medina? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01For me, power, I always before starting the psychotherapy training, I always thought power is telling people what to do and like commanding, I have power over you. But then we learned about you know power from above, right? Like when you tell things and when you feel, but also pro power from below when you're all this uh poor little thing, bless you, you're all sick, and you're like powerless almost. We see it in family dynamics as well, where these people very often hold the most power without necessarily being obvious. Because they're sick and they need to be looked after. Yeah, and and it's not there's nothing wrong with being looked after, but the way you know how you know when somebody holds power when you cannot say no to them. So, yeah, or you it's when when it's very rigid and when it's you know that's that's something that I've learned. Now I'm looking, you know, from this perspective as well, pro power from below, like just by uh evoking pity and telling how unfortunate you are and how whatever is happening, you can hold a lot of power as well. But that's a different aspect.
SPEAKER_03That is, that's a very interesting one. Yeah, and very because it's it sits with control. Control very nice very nicely. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So we we're gonna do only what fits this person, we're gonna revolve our whole life around this person. And very often in this type of cases, it's it's unconscious. People are not even aware of that. But as a structural family therapist, you know, I'm I'm trained to see that and and to recognize that. There's a whole other strand of it that I can consider. Yes.
SPEAKER_03I think that's really interesting to put that back because again, this shows how many different spokes power actually has.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, soft power works. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think on the one hand, I see I see power just as um yes, I guess that top-down, but I would bring in it's exhausting having responsibility. So I bring it with responsibility rather than with control. And it's exhausting to have responsibility when you have power. And it I think I think I learned that it wasn't actually about control. The telling.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I never I still don't consider that other side enough. Whereas I can see it, now you say it, it's obvious. You see it in people a lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, especially in family structures, you would find this what do you call grey cardinal almost uh of the family. I like dark, I think I like dark stuff as well.
SPEAKER_03It's a bit dark with power and control in relationships. Let's talk about this. Now I've watched Baby Girl, um, I don't know if you have seen it, but basically, for those who haven't seen it, it's about a CEO, female CEO, very in charge, completely runs all the company, etc. But she really likes and finds it very sexually exciting to be controlled and told what to do in this affair that she's having with her intern, which the irony, of course, being she's the power character, he is not. Right, okay, but in their dynamic, he gets her to bark like a dog, all kinds of, you know, drink milk. That was the thing. But she likes that because she doesn't have that in her relationship. And the one thing I did not find it believable was that how can you possibly have a husband like Antonio Banderas and not have an orgasm? Which is which is the whole story. And it's like lost me. But anyway, how much about attraction is power or is it power and control?
SPEAKER_01Good question. Yeah, they're they're always in interrelated, you know, power doesn't power comes with it with influence, right? But it's not every influence is not necessarily control. So healthy power would be ability to influence each other without necessarily controlling.
SPEAKER_03I think if that clarifies, and that's a that's a very healthy relationship. And in a way, what you're talking about there is the the power, which in a way is healthy. So actually, it may not be attractive at all.
SPEAKER_01That's true.
SPEAKER_03Because there's no danger attached to it.
SPEAKER_01They just Yeah, yeah, there's there's danger, excitement. And regarding Baby Girl, I think it this is one of the first movies that was, you know, that much public and that was openly discussing the power dynamics, but also on a broader context, the complex female sexuality. Yes. That there is so much more to it, especially with age, with the status, right? Yes, uh, because this is a high performer, and we all want to be high performance. I mean, this is again what the culture tells us do your best, realize your full potential, you can do this, go for it. We barely think about the cost of it, that it comes with a lot of responsibility, holding a lot of power. And some people probably, if they are psychopathic enough, they can hold it without feeling the pressure. But if we have just a little bit empathy for others, it's a lot to hold, and you know, and a lot of us will struggle. The main character found sort of an outlet for her, like a discharge, her own ways, no judgment. But again, this just shows how it can be different, and you know, how how women's sexuality, how women's needs are often go in in contrast with their social persona.
SPEAKER_03And again, spoiler alert, with the ending of Baby Girl, what actually happened was which is even more unbelievable, is Antonio Banderas just went, oh that's okay, yeah, yeah, you're fine. And then because what he he was always just supporting her the whole time, and that's what she found boring. So do you he made the lunch for the children, he picked up the children, he did all of that. But then, so not only does he do that, at the end he also becomes powerful in the bedroom.
SPEAKER_01And it's some people again, I know it was like for me that it was a bit too fast forward into you know, how did you get to a place where a person who was always for years they've been together for what 20 something years? Yes, he was always this um, you know, second, what we call supporting character, right? Or chef, the source, whatever source chef. And now all of a sudden, you know, how did he spring and fine? Maybe he always had it, we didn't know she was suppressing it, we don't know their dynamic. Maybe he had to take acting courses, yeah. But it it doesn't happen in just because of the affair. Yes, the affair probably was a good starting point for him to realize okay, if I wanna stay with this woman, I've gotta try something different, you know, and a lot of support would be needed out of a sudden, or a lot of negotiation. Yeah, now a lot of communication. We're gonna get to that as well. You know, how do you get to a safe power dynamic that satisfies you both? It's a lot of negotiation and then renegotiation again and again. And who has time for that? The honoring of us getting it. You're looking that way. Like, when? Like, it's the last thing you want to do. Come home and do negotiations. Leave me alone, just do what as you're told, and that's it.
SPEAKER_03You know that is true, that is true. So, on that note, how do you think people realise how much power, whether it's the power we have at work or the power, the responsibility, or whatever it is we're doing, shapes our relationships. That it does become just easier. Oh, this is the habit we're in, fine, let's just carry on as normal. And that can be eating away at it as it goes. Do you think we realize how much?
SPEAKER_01You know, it's it's interesting because we think of power as neurotypical people. Now I'm thinking, you know, when I try to explain to my autistic, he's not his own autistic spectrum, my younger son, and I try to explain him what is power. Yeah, yeah, take that as a challenge. You never got it. Like I'm trying to explain it. This is how people do this whole concept of power is so powerful. Either way, powerfully complicated, you know, but it's it's hard. I don't think that we uh there's that there isn't any specific class that we learn about it. Even when we studied psychology, I think there was only one class about it. And you know and it wasn't even talking about it was mostly speaking when we think of power, the m it's like some kind of politician that holds power over people and so on, or some kind of a ruler and and so on. Whereas power can be in so many different ways.
SPEAKER_02And it can be quite subtle as well, can't be. Subtle, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And damaging as well when it's subtle.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
unknownGosh.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And I don't think, yeah, we're aware enough. I mean, we are now there is more talk about coercive control and you know the power that people can hold over us. And I think a really, really good um series about this is MAID or Netflix. Yeah, yeah, in terms of like how this non-physical abuse and holding power, therefore, over somebody can be hard to prove in in you know in courts, in and in general, in different settings.
SPEAKER_03One thing I just want to add with MAID as well, which I think that I know the directors came out to set to specifically say about this. The woman is in a coercive she's been abused by the uh ex-husband, and she becomes a maid in order to escape. However, we do see the ex-husband, and actually they take the trouble to paint a very positive side of him in certain situations. And the director said, Well, why would she fall in love with him if he didn't have that side? If he was just abusive, why on earth would you have to do that? We have to see that.
SPEAKER_01Never starts like that. Yeah. But that's a different, you know, topic about this uh abuse. But I'm I'm glad that there's more and more talk about it. I have to find that. Sounds good. Very, very good, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Let's talk about something else that was on TV as well, which was really dark because it's true as well, was the Hugh Edwards documentary, docudrama. Um sometimes things can start off with a power imbalance, but it can it can work, um, because it works for both parties. So how so first of all, how does it go from that to something very damaging? And also, how can somebody realise when it's they're in that but it's become very, very unhealthy for them? Because, you know, in that they I don't think they realised at all.
SPEAKER_03No, I think it only dawned on them later.
SPEAKER_02They're so gradual, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01I haven't watched this documentary, unfortunately. It's worth watching just for the sake of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think that the first step would probably recognizing the power, the pool that is inside you, that something is taking over you.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And I think yeah, when you stop, I think the important the important um indicator of somebody having too much power or perhaps in control is when you cannot say no safely. When no feels like it's gonna really upset or make another person angry, or you don't have the freedom to express you know what you actually need as well. Your needs are getting suddenly less important for whatever reason because the other person is going through certainty, or other person's gonna, you know, there will be consequences and so on. That could be it's that feeling of your loss of your own power, isn't it? That sort of thing.
SPEAKER_02Agency, yeah. Yeah. That's what I was thinking. So it's okay until you get to the point where you think, oh, I I I'm not able to be me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03This feels odd. Yeah. But sometimes it's really you're deep in by that point. Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's hard to recognize.
SPEAKER_01And it's very it could be an isolating experience as well. Yes. In the sense that, you know, because there is shame around it, like what's going on with me and so on, then you you you the more you feel shame, the more you isolate yourself, and the deeper you get into this power imbalance, and that could be then harder. So that's whatn't it? So the young lads. And yeah, and and nobody is immune to that. There's no, you know, like perfect recipe to recognize it. Very people recover from it only after you know it's gone. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, interesting. And what you say is was what happened really in that situation. Um, so uh why do some people crave power and other people really, really want to let go? And um how can that play out in a healthy relationship?
SPEAKER_01The short answer is communication, obviously, you know, self-knowledge, self-awareness, which some of us have the luxury. It's a luxury to know to like think about like what am I and what are my needs and so on. It's a luxury that we have in this part of the world. If we have enough money, we go to retreats, we go to all kinds of experiences, we go to therapy and so on. Some things you learn on the way, right? Even after decades of therapy, then you in especially in relationships, you learn about yourself much more than you would want to learn, uh for better or for worse. Better for me, I have a job, but you know, people it's it's it's normal to struggle and find some things about yourself that you didn't know before.
SPEAKER_02Uh but answering your questions of uh what so why why do some people crave power and some you know and some um uh the opposite and how you know how can that be?
SPEAKER_01I think there are three uh thanks for for reminding us. So there are three layers, at least three layers to it. We have the biological le you know level, some people are worried for for whatever childhood experience or for their nervous system. Again, this is something that you cannot look into, you just learn through experience. There is you know psychological aspect to it, something that you probably compensate, or something that you strive for, and then there is social and cultural aspect to it as well. So you would crave for power or for surrender, depending on how is it uh uh encouraged in in your particular culture, for example, in a more collectivistic culture that the man is encouraged to be like controlling and holding the power where it's not not everybody is like that, and they would be happy to surrender, but there's so much shame around it that they're shaped by their culture, you know, and and and and so on and so forth. And that could be at least three layers that I grew up, I would see.
SPEAKER_03It's just a reminder, this is very interesting because my grandfather grew up in a very it was the home was the matriarchal society. The outside it was the man who did the work and then got promoted and so on. But my grandfather loved to cook, he absolutely loved to cook, but that was the woman's place. My grandma couldn't boil an egg. They had people to to cook for them at the time, but then when they migrated to the UK, my grandpa cooked all the time, and it was just so joyful for him, and that he didn't have to play part of that culture because there were no expectations, as long as everyone ate healthily, you know, you're you're doing all right. And it's it I think that's really interesting when a culture can be quite as judgmental.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, judgmental, dictating, shaping you, and then you know, isolating as well.
SPEAKER_03But we don't realize that, and of course, that does affect everything else and all the other relationships that you have. We are gonna stick with this topic and stick with Medina, and we'll be back after a clip of the last time Medina was on the show.
SPEAKER_01Always rule number one: if you see that there's an affair starting to happen, please report to HR. Don't you know leave all this uh intrigues and everything for spy movies, just be open and transparent. Uh, number two, please set the boundaries very clearly with the person you're having. Uh, hopefully just a romance, not an affair, but if you know uh that we're talking all the flirting happens after 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. You know, no, um, because it can, especially in certain cultures, uh, it can make people really uncomfortable. We know that in collectivistic cultures people are much more rigid towards workplace romance. And number three, don't, I mean, I really mean it, don't have a relationship with your subordinate, don't have some relationship with somebody who reports to you. Uh, leave it for the sex place with your partner, with your whatever, but it really can get it can impact your reputation, it can impact your career, uh, especially for women. We know that women who engage in in um such affairs tend to tend to suffer much more from reputational damage.
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, where we're talking to the lovely Medina um about power and um yeah, everything that that brings to relations. I know everything. Oh it's such an interesting topic. It always is when we talk to you. Always, always. Um so in a healthy relationship, so I I like my husband, he's here, he can probably hear me talking, so you don't mind me saying this. Um he when we first got together, he said, Oh, I quite like that you're bossy. So I I didn't realise I was a bossy until he said that. But I'm bossy anyway. But equally, he also likes to say, right, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that, and I like it when he does that. So I would imagine that's quite healthy. It's sort of, you know, sometimes I say what's happening, sometimes he does, so that's good. So is that what a healthy power exchange would look like in a relationship, or do i does it look like something else?
SPEAKER_01I think um the healthy power exchange probably would be pretty much. Starting from from recognition, like who holds the button. Having discrepancy, like there's always a relationship where somebody holds more like let's say financial, emotional power, um, and and whatever other forms there are, uh decision-making power, you know, that's not the point. The point is whether it is recognized, negotiated, and equally respected.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So let's say we know from research, for example, people with ADHD, they need somebody to take decisions for them. We know that it helps them to move through the day more smoothly. If somebody goes as far as choosing their outfits, but that's sort of surrendering, and then the you know, this is a communicated, negotiated exchange of power. So I'm giving you the power to change my power so that I can, you know, it unloads my thinking capacity, which is limited in terms of making decisions and so on. It would sound in that case quite controlling, like even in terms of like they would be reminded, they would be voluntarily reminded have you got there on time, have you got your own time? For somebody's like, What what? Yeah, you know, why would you give so much? To somebody, but that's a difference because they were free. They asked for it and they exchanged it and they give this power. And you would think that giving power is, you know, some something unhealthy and something that would lead them to a very bad place. But no, as long as everybody's informed and respected for who they are, I think there's you know there's a a a good chance of actually enjoying this relationship.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that also shows that the other person is understanding of their partner's, you know, needs and and the fact that they can't make it. I mean I can't.
SPEAKER_01It just takes more power. Yeah. More they they have rather limited capacity that they need to go to job, they need to use it in somewhere else. Yes.
SPEAKER_02So yeah. So that battery energy is used for something I can't decide what to have for dinner ever. We wouldn't eat if it was down to me. So yeah, so you give over that. Always, always. So that's just a small example. Like he doesn't choose my choose my clothes. Actually, I might I might I might I might have no interesting. Sorry. So on that note then, can a power imbalance be equalised? So if you got together where there was an imbalance of power already, can can that be equalised? So for example, Macron and his wife. Um yeah, as what about them that's a very important thing. Well, they meant massive imbalance.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they meant when she was a teacher, he was the student, but now he's the president.
SPEAKER_01Yes, but you know, it's it's completely in many ways changed. Yeah. But we don't know what's happening in the kitchen. Yeah, right. What does uh what kind of do they still hold the same imbalance or are they aware how they are using it? Is there still mutual respect towards each other? So I think the the key element is not necessarily to immediately to you know come to equal to equalize and then because you I've seen uh a lot of couples who would have quite equal income, equal everything, background and so on, and still there would be some kind of power imbalance because of the emotional power that somebody holds or because of that, you know, all kinds of cultural again layer to it. So I think hopefully we are moving towards equally respecting whatever imbalance there is and um and approaching it in in a way that you can negotiate, like I said, say no, say something doesn't work for me, let's reorganize it and so on. Communication again, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. Wherever you look, there's always communication.
SPEAKER_03It is indeed. Um so in that case, what does confidence and therefore balance look like in an intimate relationship? So what I mean by that is almost somebody having the confidence to be able to say, I don't like that, or I don't like the way you said that, or I don't want you to order for me, or I don't want you to decide on like so if the power's been handed over, say, and then that person's changed their mind. But I suppose if you have maybe I'm answering my own question, but if you have an open communicative relationship, you would have that as a discussion anyway, maybe that would come up.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, then the question, you know, it's it becomes and and then the chicken, you know, whatnot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of like, do you first become confident and then step up for yourself? Yeah or do you need to create it together? I always recommend to take personal responsibility. If I lack, you know, for whatever reason, if I lack confidence to speak up for myself, there's something that obviously we both do, you know, it's it's not just the partner. You will hear it all the time, like I I don't speak up because he doesn't like or they don't let me speak up. Yeah, it is true. Yeah. But it's only partially true. There's also something about you and your own history that prevents you from speaking up. And you know, and and you can go on and on and on for twenty sessions trying, you know, keep keeping this whole loop, right, of who is responsible. No, it's him. I d I do this because he does this, and and and it goes on and on forever. Where I kindly suggest to break the cycle and you know, do whatever you can in your own power. Power. Yes, yes. You know, to to to remember who you are, to you know, to like sometimes it's it's not just the partners, the circumstances make us less powerful and yeah, you know. I mean, as which probably leads on to this next bit as as like immigration immigration for I mean for me personally, I can say immigration experience was one of those things. It has nothing to do with my husband, but with you know, moving in a different garden. You lose, for whatever reason, you lose your confidence and you lose like the sense of agency that you have for you don't know anything. Yeah, you're you you're constantly learning, you try to adapt.
SPEAKER_03And I think age is another factor. Definitely it's because you might have to become more reliant on somebody else, and uh and maybe you can't do as much as you used to previously. Um and then this is sort of another question as things change. Is it you know, fairness is that word? You know, uh so as should a man, for example, have a vasectomy because the woman's been on a on the pill for all her life but now she can't, you know, is that fair?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I you know I think you know, when when those questions are yes or no, fair or not fair, I'm it's it's tricky because you can always find, you know, yes it is fair because da da da, and then another person will say no it's not right. I think it's when especially when a couple comes to me with this type of question, what should we do? Do we need to know or having or not having children, yeah, and so on and so forth. It's not the question of yes or no, but what does it mean to you more? And then you would you're more likely to find the common ground rather than like just being polarized between yes and no, whether it's fair or not. It it would have completely different, you know, for man, it would have a different meaning, and for woman, and you know, she obviously they obviously have their own history and expectations and so on and and meanings attached.
SPEAKER_03So again, it is not just communication but deeper than the first initial question that's being asked. And and sometimes I think it is difficult for couples to do that without a a mediator, without a therapist, because or or anyone who at least understands the situation and can balance out the two views because it's so easy for it to get into well I do anyway.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, into escalation, and you know, it's and it is normal that sometimes the even the couples who had the ability to discuss normally, so they would lose this balance for whatever reason. There's life is happening, yeah, and you know, they would need extra support uh in in terms of like giving space for each other and and holding this space really because very often they would be like, Yeah, I know how bad they feel, and but I I am struggling with this and that. I'm like you need to hold this, like just don't rush through, you know, why you're entitled to your um emotions and so on, and you know, and then they hopefully internalize, and they I even had couples who would say, like, we imagine you sit here on the what do we feel about this, and that helps you know to to to slow down, actually. That's number one job that I do is to de-escalate to slow down whatever difficult conversations people are having.
SPEAKER_03We we'll keep you, Medina, and we'll be back just after a clip from the last time Medina was on the show.
SPEAKER_01I think one um one of the biggest issues that I see right now in it as working in general couples, whatever form they choose, is in inability to hear, uh to hear each other. It doesn't matter what form of relationship they're in, to maintain, I would call it maintaining two realities. So it's usually uh no, you're seeing it wrong because it is like that.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, no, no, no. You don't understand. This is right and you are wrong, and cut it off, and I don't want to know, I don't want to hear anything about it. Whereas my job is bringing these two realities and letting them coexist together without crossing each other out. I don't know if it that makes sense, but maybe yeah, and and it takes a lot of inner maturity, not to pretend that, like, yeah, yeah, right, this is your opinion, but actually see the reality of the other person, like what you described here. See the other shades of green, like the same color as I am. This is your pain, this is my pain. All right, you know, we don't have to solve it right away, but at least consider it, regard it.
SPEAKER_03Welcome back to Mental Health Matters. This is a really interesting discussion about power and how many aspects it has and how it plays out. So let's stick to the topic of power and think about people's own recognition of their relationships to power. And I want to bring in that power from below here, and we'll bring in children when it revolves around the child, and parents maybe don't even realize it because it's just become so normalized that that child will kick off, or that person in the family, maybe not be a child, maybe auntie or uncle or sister or whoever will kick off if their wishes are not granted. So it's almost easier, and then it only becomes weird when somebody else, an outsider, comes in and goes, and doesn't play ball.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, doesn't play the game, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yes. So do you think people I mean, how do you cope with that, A, in the first instance, and B, do you think people recognize it until the outsider comes in?
SPEAKER_01It dip depends. I mean, uh depends how well, you know, how integrated this family would be, how wider of a community they have to help them to point out, and not a lot of us do, especially in urban settings, is it's hard. So you would get this. Um very often, for example, and and we view in in terms of structural family therapy, we view children who, for example, have a certain disease which is uh let's say anorexia, it is viewed uh not to oversimplify. There are many, many, many, many layers to it, but very often it's the way a child says no on behalf of everybody else in the family. So they kind of try this is their ultimate way to hold the power which otherwise they don't have. I this is one of the very, very, like I said, oversimplified there's it needs much more research, nuance, and so on. But this is been around for that theory's been around for a very long time. Yeah, and uh and and any other, you know, some some kind of person with addiction as well would hold the power in a way, you know. Holding the power doesn't need doesn't necessarily mean holding responsibility in this case. This is just a way of of controlling, not with a you know, conscious decision or like with open-minded state. It's it's more of like how things naturally gravitate. Like you know, uh we would we we see, for example, giving away the power in in addic uh in family with addictions, let's say. Uh very often when we work with the partners, right, who are like there to save the the you know the the addicted person and so on, then the addicted person gets cured and they're like, What do I do now? I don't I I I reason for being as well. No reason for being, and they almost wish for their partner to get back to the addiction, and sometimes they even encourage it unconsciously, unconsciously encourage because that gives them the sense of purpose.
SPEAKER_03But that's you know, too much details, just to say that is it possible to recognize it yes if they're but you can get too deep before you even recognize that's that's happening.
SPEAKER_01Children very often take this, you know, role because very often it saves the family from addressing their real issues between each other. But that's like, oh, that's just too, you know, to a whole new um area.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So in that case, what should we be asking ourselves to keep that check and balance on that relationship? I know it's very difficult every day at the year, right? Three things which were weird to you, but I don't mean it like that, but how do we just keep that? Oh, am I feeling this is right? How do we keep an eye on ourselves?
SPEAKER_01It's a it's a it's a good question. I think also with power imbalance, it's you know, the more secluded you are, the more likely you are to have this power imbalance, you know, the more isolated you are, the more rigid the system will be. Uh, but that's just to say, you know, that to to widen your uh social circles and so on, that would help you to keep track. Otherwise, it's almost you know, when you're inside this whole system, you can't it's it's really hard. Yes, checking in with yourself how much power, how much authority, how much agency do I have, how much am I respected, valued for what I am, for what I do. You know, and again, even that uh would would would take some time to to digest. Um you know, for example, like I would even ask uh a partner in in a couple when uh they were called stupid idiot in front of me. And my job is not to, you know, reprimand. Yeah, reprimand. Like, how how does it feel to be called stupid idiot? And sh and and and the person would be like, uh, I don't know, I kind of got used to it. So it's like it doesn't immediately register, does it? Yeah, yeah. And you know, things like that, they they might require more support and more time for uh awareness, and then what do you do with this awareness as well? Yes, then you have to make decisions.
SPEAKER_03Decisions which are very painful sometimes or difficult to make, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you have to take responsibility.
SPEAKER_02So, so yeah, so once you have recognized then that there's a power imbalance, how can you explore that safely?
SPEAKER_01I think it really depends again on the couple, and sometimes it's a safe to say, sometimes not really. And then the question is why, how did it evolve in such a way that it's not necessarily safe to discuss this? Sometimes it's not safe because it's not safe, you know, you don't need to analyze too much and then ask for professional help and um different uh you know structures that can that can attack on you. It's not always uh you, you know, like I let this happen. Uh sometimes it's the systemic thing. We know that you know certain particular vulnerable groups and certain particular parts of the country are notorious for you know having the what you call what you call imbalances, not because of who they are, but because the way the system works, unfortunately. And and and racism and all of that, it's it's still there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh, it's a very um it's it's such a huge subject, isn't it? It's been really interesting. Um where can we learn more about you?
SPEAKER_01It's uh my website. I just um restructured it talking about restructure. It's uh www.medina demirbosch.com. Or you can find me on Instagram as Medina Relationships Therapist.
SPEAKER_03We are gonna keep you, Medina, and head on to Test the Trend. So, some more question prompts for Test the Trend, just to explore this idea of power and control and what it means to us and maybe how we feel. Um, and you can do this at home as well. Uh, I'd like you to think about a recent interaction that you've had where there was an imbalance of power, whether that was power from below, whether that was power from above, it could be a work situation, it could be a personal situation, and I want you to think about A, who was in control, and B, how did you react or act in that situation? So think about that. So, just to give an example, um, I know I was in a gr a group where it was very clearly the child that was in control, I reacted by getting frustrated.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and almost acting out, actually, being a lot more kind of right, well you want to do I'll shout louder. I'll have more practice. But funny. What's for me? So so what uh do you mind sharing the situation without giving too much detail of when uh who was in control and how you reacted?
SPEAKER_01Mm uh yeah, I pff it was a friend who invited me to teach yoga to them. Right. And I yeah, and then I kind of forgot to say the price because it was individual. It was very tricky. Oh yes. In the end they gave a certain amount and I'm like, uh actually, like I I've written I've written it, but the person didn't receive it, it was in a different group. Like so it felt like they clearly had the power to decide how much you know they're gonna pay for this uh yoga class. And that was like but that's different context, so we'll keep those in mind.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and Jude? Um it's a family member, and yeah, without going into too much detail, um I and I I did this a lot, I asked if I could do a certain thing, and they said no, and I have no comeback. But it but rather than me say something, because it was very unreasonable that they said no, I just withdrew.
SPEAKER_03So just withdrew. So the next next question you need to ask yourself was um did it cost you in any way? And if it did cost, this comes back to your point about personal um responsibility, what shift can you make in order to not experience that in future? And you know, so in my case I've got two options. One option is, well, three maybe, speak to the parent about it, so confront it. Um second is not see them, which I think is not the right thing to do. Or the third is um actually adjust my behaviour because I'm not their parent. This is not my, you know, I can just don't don't get drawn in.
SPEAKER_01Stop behaving in the same way and giving that poor parent two people. Yeah, some some some children know how to pull your nose. Like you, you, you, you promise yourself I'm not gonna get engaged, but then like push your button.
SPEAKER_03With relation in related to the point about making the shift, is power it not just being something that is controlled or taken around taken from you, even if you're opening up a negotiation, but actually what you do in order to either accept it or reject the power shift. So it's we have power in the ship.
SPEAKER_01Or lack of action in that sense. So uh for me, I I was very clear. I was, you know, I I said I don't want these tricky situations. So in this group again, I wrote like if you want to have individual classes, this is how much it costs, just reminding. I'm happy taking power back, taking yeah, taking power back without necessarily you know communicating it because it it it was tricky because of the different context, but I also learned like I mm like I'm you know if it felt like the person would insist, like nah, then it would be different, yeah. You know, but then that also says more about them, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And it's easier to deal with when somebody shows their own.
SPEAKER_01I definitely did my part, like you know, I've learned that this this can be the same.
SPEAKER_03You did it politely, you did it, yeah, yeah. So it's about shifting that power back and knowing that you have the power. I mean, maybe don't ask next time.
SPEAKER_02Just do well I I had to, I had to for the circumstances, it wasn't anything I could just do. But yeah, but but interestingly enough, with that situation, their power has got bigger because I think they sensed my reaction, so they they felt um uh justified in in big being like that more and about different things.
SPEAKER_03Oh interesting. So again, it is about seeing that as a check and balance, shifting power back because power is not just about what's done to us, it is about what we hold ourselves. As always, it's brilliant having you on, Medina. This has just been a fascinating show, and you've just uncovered so many different things to think. I always leave with more questions than I started with. What what bits suck with you, Jude, today that you're gonna think about?
SPEAKER_02Um, it's the bit where power isn't about the all powerful person above, you know, like a king or whatever. It it can come from below and it can be much more subtle, but just Damaging, if not more actually, because if it's a you we don't know the king of England, we don't know the Prime Minister, so none of us do right now.
SPEAKER_00Well, we don't even know who it is.
SPEAKER_02Who might it be to know? Yeah, but you know what I mean. So it's difficult to take that personally, but when it's the kind of as you describe, you take it more personally, and that's a different kind of a power. So yes.
SPEAKER_01And in in some situations, it requires you do give a lot of power and authority, you know, like a baby. Yes, baby will command the show because it's a baby, you know, and you do have to restructure anybody who says, My life is the same after the baby, you know, clearly is has a lot of whatever other things to work with. Yeah, but uh yeah, so some situations or sudden, you know, sudden sickness of a family member and so on and so forth does require you to to to sort of almost give the part. I don't want to, you know, demonize the people who are in need and so but it's it's it's it's about recognizing and gradually restructuring the way that you know everybody is rather um yeah, egal is towards egalitarianism, if if possible.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, no, no, I I agree with that. And I think there is that you you very rightly brought up the point of sometimes you do hand power over to somebody deliberately because that helps you function, and that's okay. And other people are not that shouldn't be judging on that because they have got no idea what conversations have gone on in in the kitchen or whatever. And I think that's the other important thing I've taken from that in terms of any power imbalances or what we might perceive, we're not with that person 24-7, we don't know. But for ourselves, what I take from it is when it feels off, then it is time to just question what's going on. So, Medina, just to uh close with yourself. Um, anything that you can ask us to do to maybe either be aware of our own power or the be aware of our impact of the power on others or or be aware of other people's power on us.
SPEAKER_01Because power can be very sweet, can't it? I mean, it can be intoxicating as well and addictive. Yeah. And I think, you know, one one of the best examples of it that I saw was uh the Elvis Presley movie, that you know, this holding power over the audience was just just got him, you know, at the end of the day, k killed him, you know, but in in the moment it's hard to say no. But again, moving away from the dark side of it, the first thing that you know, like you said, when something feels off, when you feel that you don't have the uh agency, that you don't have the space to express your uh discontent and and and you know to express your your uh disagreement really that would be a first indicator that there is a power imbalance uh or uncommunicated power imbalance, let's put it this way. And as long as everybody can send these properties, the second most important thing that everybody involved knows is aware about this imbalance and they consent to it, then you know, in whatever context, in work, in sexual life, and so on, and there's this element of checking in with each other.
SPEAKER_03And from all of us here in Mental Health Matters, have a healthy week.
